Does anyone think a dispensation is turning your back on your faith?

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JohnnyArcade

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The reason I ask is because I have considered marrying my Lutheran girlfriend before, and we have hit a wall over religion. She had said before when we dated she would convert to Catholocism because as I do, she agrees that a family needs to be unified in one faith. We attend Mass weekly, she genuflects, makes the sign of the cross, etc., everything but receives communion obviously. Recently, after going to services for a holiday with her family at her childhood church, she has said she feels it is very important to her to be married in the church she grew up in. She has said she would convert once we were married, but she feels like if I truly lover her, then I would accept her desirte to be married in her church.

She has stated that she feels like she wants the man who marries her to “accept her as she is”, and not put conditions on her. I told her that is silly, that I do love her as she is, but that it would be better for our relationship as a whole. it has nothing to do with her not being “good enough”. Keep in mind, her family os not very devout. They attend services once every few months. SHe has attended Mass more in the past year than she did Lutheran services in the past 5 years. To me, convcerting is no big deal, esp if you aren’t passionate about your faith. It isn’t as though she is quoting the 95 Theses all the time or anything 🙂 I personally think it is a pride issue, and a feeling that “your religion isn’t good enough”.

I spoke to a very conservative Priest about dispensations, and he felt like if she was willing to raise the children Catholic, and possibily even convert, that having the wedding in her chuirch was not asking too much. He said often these things that may seem silly to a man are important to a girl (she is 24). My ultraconservative Catholic mother feels like I would be slapping the Church in the face by using the dispensation, since she feels as though it is a “loop hole”, or something to that effect.

Does anyone have any advice or thoughts? She is a great girl by all accounts, and I love her very much. I never thought I would marry a non-Catholic, or outside the Church, but then I went and fell for a Lutheran girl. I guess I hateb the idea of losing a great girl who has more morals and standards that I want than many of the Catholic girls who I have dated who utterly disappointed me. I don’t like the idea of looking a gift horse in the mouth, and to be honest, I would get a dispensation for her, but with some opinions who I value saying “if she loved you, she’d convert ahead of time” make me feel like I am wrong or foolish for thinking about it.

Thanx
 
All of the research that I have done shows that you are well within the teachings of the church and would not be “turning your back” on her. If this is really important to her, let her know that it can be done. But at the same time, you may want to go through some sort of a Catholic Nuptual Mass or a marriage blessing. If she loves you, she will do this for you, right? It sounds to me like all of your i’s are dotted and your t’s are crossed. Go for it.

👍 😃
 
why would be pursuing a legitimate option under canon law, with the permission of the bishop who is the authority, be considered turning your back on your faith? this should pose a problem only if you have problems acknowledging the bishop’s authority.

the larger issue is whether or not a marriage between two persons of different faiths, both of whom have strong ties and feelings about their faith, is prudential. your fiancee’s doubts about the compromises required forcing one or the other to deny some basic aspects of their identity is quite well founded. In any case, you, not she, will be required to promise to raise your children as Catholics and insure your own practice of the faith is not compromised.
you had better resolve this issue between you before you proceed with any marriage plans.
 
JohnnyArcade - It sounds like your priest friend, who can assess the details better than we on the forum, thinks this is the type of situation the dispensation was designed to accommodate. I would go with his judgment.
 
I agree with following the guidance of your priest.

I also predict that should you go ahead and get married, this won’t be the last of the conflicts between your girlfriend and her future mother-in-law. Be sure to thoroughly discuss potential problems such as these in your pre-Cana classes.
 
Just a bit of tradition (small “t”) - you are usually married in the bride’s church. You would need a dispensation whether you married in a Catholic ceremony with a Priest or in a Lutheran church with a Minister presiding.

Your mom may feel more betrayed by your decision than she is saying.

I am also going to add that if your bride to be is 24 you are probably the same age or older, so you are an adult in every sense of the word and can do as you wish within the laws of the Chruch and the Country.

As a woman married to a Lutheran I can tell you that it is not always easy but we have been married now 26+ years have been through some trials that many Catholic to Catholic and Lutheran to Lutheran marriages would have broken up long ago. If you invite God into your marriage you have a much better chance of staying married.

You should consult with your Priest friend again and with your bride-to-be’s Minister. You might find that the Minister won’t be willing to officiate at such a wedding. You can most definitely have a Priest present and possibly even officiate if the Lutheran MInister will allow it in his church - you would probably not have a Wedding Mass though in such a setting but it can still be done. These are questions that only the Minister and your Priest can answer and help the two of you work out.

To answer your question though, getting a dispensation is certainly not turning your back on the Church! I got one but I did get married in a Catholic Church with a Priest officiating.

What does your mom think about your needing a dispensation to marry a non-Catholic Christian? You would need one in order to marry even in a Catholic Church 😃

Brenda V.
 
Johnny,

You didn’t specifically ask for it, but I will pray for you and your fiance as you enter into the next phase of your lives together. This is a tough thing you’re headed into, marrying someone outside the faith. Stay closely in touch with your priest and use his advice as you proceed.

One question I have, however. If she has already stated she will convert to Catholicism, why would she want to marry in any other church. You might want to postpone the marriage until after she has taken RCIA, beginning this Fall at your local parish. This will give her an opportunity to truly learn what the Church teaches and determine if the change is something she can really do. You should not consider encouraging anyone to convert without believing in what the Church teaches. Their responsibility to follow the teachings increases through the conversion. You don’t want to mess with someone’s soul if it could increase their responsibilities without their intent to comply.

I hope this helps,

CARose
 
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JohnnyArcade:
My ultraconservative Catholic mother feels like I would be slapping the Church in the face by using the dispensation, since she feels as though it is a “loop hole”, or something to that effect.

Does anyone have any advice or thoughts? Thanx
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If the Church had a problem with giving a dispensation for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic in the non-Catholic’s church, then guess what…? Dispensations would not exist.

Your mother is overly scrupulous.
 
Thank you for the advice. I guess what is most frustrating is the fact that she rarely attended her church, but really wants to be married in it. Whereas I attend mass weekly, sometimes daily when able, and you’d think it would be more logical to marry in a Catholic Church. However, I would be willing to do so for her.

Does the “accept me as I am” mentality seem to make sense? To me, it seems a bit immature. To me, it is about what is best for the couple and the relationship.

For the record, I am 30, and have been through a bit more than she has, so perhaps I look at it from a different perspective.

I would never waiver on raising the children Catholic, but I worry that what if she decided she DIN’T want to be come Catholic once we were married? That is, I suppose, the risk we run in this situation. I am not worried about my mother; I only mention her objection because I usually trust her opinion, and wanted some (name removed by moderator)ut.

I do want to do God’s will in this. I guess the fact that I hear different opinions - some Catholic friends have said you should strive to avoid marrying outside the faith at all costs (which I agree with), and others who have said look at the character of the person first and formeost before saying “you are not a Catholic!”. It seems to be possible that His will could be for me to marry a non-Catholic, any thoughts?

Thanks for the insight and prayers.
 
She may not be a “strong” Lutheran, but my take is that the tradition of getting married in a familiar place where she attended Church with her family when she was younger is the most important thing to her at this point rather than the religion itself. Have you asked her about that with a direct and clear question?

Here’s another suggestion. Why don’t the both of you go to an engaged encounter weekend through your Church? If you have concerns and doubts, this might be a great way to broach the subject after you have had a reflection-filled weekend such as this would provide.

As for getting married in her Church, could you also sometime after have your marriage blessed formally, in front of a Priest in your Church? That would validate and stress the importance of your beliefs as well.

It’s good that you are addressing your concerns now. But keep in mind that many couples of mixed faiths have strong marriages. The key is open communication and trust built on past experiences with each other.
 
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JohnnyArcade:
Thank you for the advice. I guess what is most frustrating is the fact that she rarely attended her church, but really wants to be married in it. Whereas I attend mass weekly, sometimes daily when able, and you’d think it would be more logical to marry in a Catholic Church. However, I would be willing to do so for her.
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JohnnyArcade - when you are talking about a girls “wedding” we are not talking logic at all. We are talking emotions and lifelong dreams.

Here are some questions to consider:
Is the church (building) the one your fiance grew up in?
Did she have dreams of how she would decorate this specific building and what she would wear?
What about where the reception is held? Is there a reception hall at the church? Or does she have other ideas for that one too?

Ask her some of these quesitons, ask her what her dream wedding was about and perhaps you will get some insight into why she is saying what she is saying.

Talk about specifics and don’t forget that emotions play a large part in a girls wedding. What flowers she wants in her bouquet, for decorations in the church, what her dress should look like

You will notice I say wedding and not marriage ceremony. As girls we women dream about our weddings (and often forget about the marriage itself). So many hours are devoted to the preparations for the Wedding Ceremony and Vows and for the reception that very little energy is spent on the meaning of the Marriage Vows and the Sacramental Nature of it. The Vows, the Sacrament itself lasts at the most 10 minutes while everything else is so much more time consuming and the marriage itself is for life.

Anyway, my advise to you is to drop any thoughts of logic at this point and ask her to help you understand what she wants in the Lutheran Church she grew up in - what her dress should look like (at least vaguely because you aren’t supposed to see it until the day of the wedding as she marches down the aisle), how does she want to decorate the church? What kind of flowers she wants? How many people does she want to invite? LIttle details kind of questions and then maybe you will see that she isn’t thinking about the religious nature of the ceremony, just the accoutrements. When you two start Pre-Cana you can get into the spiritual, religious nature of the wedding - you might want to even consider starting something (like the Engaged Encounter someone suggested) in order to put her mind onto these things and then set the date and place (she may change her mind which is a woman’s perogative ). 😃

Brenda V.
 
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JohnnyArcade:
Thank you for the advice. I guess what is most frustrating is the fact that she rarely attended her church, but really wants to be married in it. Whereas I attend mass weekly, sometimes daily when able, and you’d think it would be more logical to marry in a Catholic Church. However, I would be willing to do so for her.

Does the “accept me as I am” mentality seem to make sense? To me, it seems a bit immature. To me, it is about what is best for the couple and the relationship.

For the record, I am 30, and have been through a bit more than she has, so perhaps I look at it from a different perspective.

I would never waiver on raising the children Catholic, but I worry that what if she decided she DIN’T want to be come Catholic once we were married? That is, I suppose, the risk we run in this situation. I am not worried about my mother; I only mention her objection because I usually trust her opinion, and wanted some (name removed by moderator)ut.

I do want to do God’s will in this. I guess the fact that I hear different opinions - some Catholic friends have said you should strive to avoid marrying outside the faith at all costs (which I agree with), and others who have said look at the character of the person first and formeost before saying “you are not a Catholic!”. It seems to be possible that His will could be for me to marry a non-Catholic, any thoughts?

Thanks for the insight and prayers.
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I am a convert to the CC from the Episcopalian church. I converted at age 25, on my own-- not due to a relationship or anything.

I can relate to your fiancee. I love my Catholic faith and Catholic church, but there is a small little part of me that wishes I could get married in my childhood church where I have so many memories of learning about God and growing in my faith. Of course, it’s an EC church.

I’m getting married in 7 weeks, and I agree with the other poster who said there is nothing rational about a bride-to-be! 🙂

I would never marry a non-Catholic-- good person or not. I just can’t see having a house divided. But, you have to make your own call on that. I know many people for whom this has worked out, or where the spouse has converted. But, you cannot base your marriage on the hope that another will convert. Personally, I see more issues with a mixed marriage than I do benefits.
 
My husband is not Catholic, because when we married, I wasn’t firm in my faith. I can’t imagine now marrying someone outside the faith. I think the reason I’m noting this in your thread is the comments of 1ke. Our marriage is undergoing significant challenges due to our being of different faiths.

If you are at all concerned that she might back out of converting, I suggest you rethink what you may be in for. If, for some sad reason, your marriage doesn’t last and you have children, will she raise the children Catholic? Don’t count on it if she’s not Catholic. How would you feel about this?

Perhaps my questions are borrowing trouble, but I think it would be wise to know she were converting because she believes what the church teaches, rather than because she’s told you she would. Hence, my earlier suggestion that you recommend RCIA before any wedding date is set.

At a minimum, if you are certain you’re going through with it, I concur with the recommendations that you to an Engaged Encounter weekend or other pre-cana program through your local parish. This should be an absolute minimum.

CARose
 
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JohnnyArcade:
I would never waiver on raising the children Catholic, but I worry that what if she decided she DIN’T want to be come Catholic once we were married? That is, I suppose, the risk we run in this situation. .
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I think CARose gave you some excellent advice. Your fiance needs to fully understand what she has committed to regarding conversion and raising the children Catholic. This step will greatly lower the risk of her changing her mind.

I realize that you are willing to accept the possibility of her not converting. What about the risk of her changing her mind on the denomination of the children?
 
Is there anyway that your priest could be involved in the ceremony? I believe I have heard of this happening before.
 
Thank you for the replies all. I understand her yearning to be married in the Church of her youth, and could accept that, but if there is more underlying her willingness to wait to be Catholic with me, then I worry.

As some mentioned, my biggest concern is that she will not ever convert. Worse than that, what is has issues down the line with my children being raised Catholic? Sometimes I feel like I am being too much of a cynic, but these seem like definite possibilities. How many people say they will do it, then do a 180 and break the promises? Worse yet, they insist or their own faith being inserted? Again, I feel like a bitter cynic to marriage, but these all seem like they do occur.

She was all for becoming Catholic prior to marriage. This was in the first year we dated. then, once the “rose was off the bloom”, it seemed she began to back peddle, and has made comments like “what if I can’t ever convert?” She insisted she feels that she would convert once we were married, but she wanted to make sure I would love her regardless and not put “conditions” on her. We attend Mas weekly, and she participates in every facet save for receiving the Eucharist obviously. She has actually cried before because she feels like she is missing the most important aspect of the Mass. She rarely attended Lutheran services when we were not together.

I just worry that if hse has beack peddled a bit now, will that continue, and what if I find she decides one day “I don’t want the children raised Catholic!” I feel like I know her and trust her, and I feel confident she would join me in my faith, but I wonder how many other people have felt this way before and been completely wrong? I guess I am just jaded and feel like “I am sure everyone says the same thing…”

The sad thing is she has many of the qualities I look for in Catholic women I have dated btu haven’t found. She is conservative, pro-life, is adament about being a stay at home mother to her children, all things I want. I guess I fear looking a gift horse in the mouth. I also wonder about the possibility of God placing a person in my life to help bring them to the Catholic Church, which would be fantastic.
 
Thank you for the replies all. I understand her yearning to be married in the Church of her youth, and could accept that, but if there is more underlying her willingness to wait to be Catholic with me, then I worry.

As some mentioned, my biggest concern is that she will not ever convert. Worse than that, what is has issues down the line with my children being raised Catholic? Sometimes I feel like I am being too much of a cynic, but these seem like definite possibilities. How many people say they will do it, then do a 180 and break the promises? Worse yet, they insist or their own faith being inserted? Again, I feel like a bitter cynic to marriage, but these all seem like they do occur.

She was all for becoming Catholic prior to marriage. This was in the first year we dated. then, once the “rose was off the bloom”, it seemed she began to back peddle, and has made comments like “what if I can’t ever convert?” She insisted she feels that she would convert once we were married, but she wanted to make sure I would love her regardless and not put “conditions” on her. We attend Mas weekly, and she participates in every facet save for receiving the Eucharist obviously. She has actually cried before because she feels like she is missing the most important aspect of the Mass. She rarely attended Lutheran services when we were not together.

I just worry that if hse has beack peddled a bit now, will that continue, and what if I find she decides one day “I don’t want the children raised Catholic!” I feel like I know her and trust her, and I feel confident she would join me in my faith, but I wonder how many other people have felt this way before and been completely wrong? I guess I am just jaded and feel like “I am sure everyone says the same thing…”

The sad thing is she has many of the qualities I look for in Catholic women I have dated btu haven’t found. She is conservative, pro-life, is adament about being a stay at home mother to her children, all things I want. I guess I fear looking a gift horse in the mouth. I also wonder about the possibility of God placing a person in my life to help bring them to the Catholic Church, which would be fantastic.
 
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JohnnyArcade:
I understand her yearning to be married in the Church of her youth, and could accept that, but if there is more underlying her willingness to wait to be Catholic with me, then I worry.
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Why don’t you just discuss that with her? If I were you (which I’m not, of course!) I wouldn’t put any pressure on her at all, or look for any specific commitments from her pre-marriage. I would just ask her if her intentions are still there to further explore Catholicism through RCIA, etc. If she says yes, then that should be good enough for you.

The best you can hope for is an open attitude towards it. It’s a lifelong journey that she’s on, and if she’s not ready in her heart to actually convert, then you do more harm than good by pressing the issue. She’s going to mass with you regularly, which should tell you something. Let her develop this herself. Accepting a new religion is a pretty big deal!

I think that her desire to get married in her girlhood church is probably a two-fold issue: one, because it’s the traditional thing to do and she probably has dreamed of it her whole life from the perspective of the four walls of her own church, and secondly, it’s an issue of control. She’s obviously concerned that you might be trying to drive her life with respect to religion, and she wants to make sure that she is the one in the driver’s seat. Although she probably doesn’t even admit it to herself, that’s likely why she’s making an issue of it: to prove to herself, and you, that she is in control of her conversion.

But it sounds to me that your heart and her heart are both in the right place.

Good luck, and God bless,

Pete
 
Johnny,

Why in the world would it be wrong to “look a gift horse in the mouth”? This is a person with whom you are considering raising a family. That is the single most important decision you can make in your life and you should use all your faculties to assist you in making a wise decision here.

You are right, if she has started back peddling now, you can expect much more of it as life goes on. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your having conditions regarding what you expect before you marry a woman, and personally, I think religion is an absolutely fine thing to need. Once you are married, you are committed and must work to make it work, regardless of the challenges you encounter.

Now is the time to decide on what issues you can compromise and on what you can’t, before you commit. If Catholicism is important to you for your future children, and you are in any way uncertain that she’ll be comfortable going through with it, you may need to trust that God has a better plan for you and only in His time will you know what that plan is.

Do NOT tell her that you’ll only marry her if she’ll convert. You don’t want a coerced conversion, for that is no conversion at all. At the same time, do ask her to attend RCIA before you set a date for the wedding. Let her know that you only want her to convert if she, like you, believes that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, established by Christ.

Then, as she progresses through the program, pray like crazy that she be open to the working of the Holy Spirit. I would recommend that you not volunteer to be her sponsor, allow others to bring her through this process, so it is something she is doing on her own. Do offer to meet with her and talk about the process if she wants to share with you. Do not be offended if she isn’t fully sold right from the beginning, allow her to challenge what she’s learning so she can work through her own disbelief.

Give yourself the distance necessary to determine if this is the woman for you, without placing undue pressure on her to convert. If she can’t do it, and you need your children to be Catholic, I would seriously suggest your doubts are there for a reason. Listen to the wisdom that seems to be growing in your heart.

God Bless, the two of you are in my prayers,

CARose
 
“I would never waiver on raising the children Catholic, but I worry that what if she decided she DIN’T want to be come Catholic once we were married?”

Hello! I hate to disagree with most of the other’s here but if you attend mass weekly and sometimes more often, I really don’t see how you will be happy married to someone who does not hold your faith as dearly. If she does not convert then what? You should marry someone who wants to become Catholic for the sake of being Catholic, not just do it so she can marry you. If it’s truly important to you to raise Catholic children, marry a Catholic woman. Tell her she’s got a year to decide. Marriage is so much more than waking up next to a great person. And a great Catholic gal (if that’s what you really want to wake up to 20 years from now) is worth waiting for.

Cindy
 
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