Does baptism change one’s life drastically?

[chessnerd321]

How would you design an experiment to prove this?

One of the fundamental assumptions of the scientific method is universality of the laws of science. While that’s a decent assumption in the physical realm it’s not much of a good one for anything non-physical.

We don’t have a good reason to expect that God must behave replicably and repeatably. It’s absurd to assume we can hypothesize about what God will do. So no using an experiment makes no sense, but not for the reason you seem to imply.

Secondly, the church has defined exactly what we mean by baptism at very great length, and it has nothing to do with the water itself. By design water is required. Baptism saves us, but “not by the removal of dirt from the skin”, or “not because of the water”.

 

[Sophie111]

Sorry but you lost me here…

We don’t have a good reason to expect that God must behave replicably and repeatably.

God is always faithful and not arbitrary…thats why I am Christian.

baptism at very great length, and it has nothing to do with the water itself.

Many still believe even today that we must be born of water to be saved…quoting Jesus himself.
So I do agree with you on this point but some even on this thread appear not to.

 

[Sophie111]

Sophie111 is again asserting

JM you are allowed to address me directly, I dont believe you will be contaminated by doing so .

The question is does sacramental baptism change people drastically?
How can quoting a book written 2000 years credibly demonstrate that…poor apologetics I would think.

All we Christians have is the witness of our lives.
And that isnt going so well with all the clerical abuse is it?

If the OP has to ask then maybe he or she has not yet felt the love. But it will come with time. But human weakness is always part of the mix. The Holy Spirit will teach that eventually.

As for ancient sacramental theology and baptismal hocus pocus. Few outsiders naturally thinks like that anymore. If it is true how would anyone know for sure until the next life. Its poor apologetics. I get it you disagree. But then I deal closely with non Christians from other cultures quite often.

 

[chessnerd321]

God is always faithful and not arbitrary…thats why I am Christian.

Yes, but not in a scientific way. Some “scientists” have attempted to do prayer studies on whether or not people who are prayed for recover from illness more frequently for example.

It is NOT a Christian position that if we pray for health that God owes us anything. He promises us well-being in some ultimate sense but not in scientifically measurable ways that we can design experiments around. Saying “my experiment didn’t find God so he doesn’t exist” makes as much sense as “I’ve never seen a buffalo in person so it doesn’t exist”.

Many still believe even today that we must be born of water to be saved…

Don’t misunderstand me. Baptism is the ordinary means of salvation. I was just saying there’s nothing about the water in and of itself that is “magic”. Baptism water is just water. Unless it’s holy water but even then from a chemical/scientific view that’s just water too.

 

[Sophie111]

He promises us well-being in some ultimate sense but not in scientifically measurable ways

Great, you agree with me then.
Baptism may well change us drastically but not in any way that can be demonstrated to an unbeliever in this life.
Which was the original question to be answered.

 

[edjlopez23]

Yes, in a spiritual sense.

 

[John_Martin]

Sophie111 is now coming out clearly in denying the faithful witness not only of the Magisterium, but also of Scripture itself as it declares the validity and actual effect of “baptismal hocus pocus” (he calls it). Of the Bible’s witness Sophie111 tries to mislead you by a kind of insult (“if you believe this fairy tail, you are foolish” would be a paraphrase of his words: “The question is does sacramental baptism change people drastically?
How can quoting a book written 2000 years credibly demonstrate that…poor apologetics I would think.”)
It were, however, a kind of foolish pride to think that humanity has somehow become more sophisticated in those 2000 years, unless “sophisticated” were to mean “tending to easily fall prey to sophistry”.

He does not know that “outsiders”, the onlooking crowds, have never understood the “hocus pocus”, and our Lord always spoke to them in Parables, rather than plainly explaining what only the faithful disciples heard from him. That is why with Sophie111 he will not understand “heavenly things” because he refuses to believe the earthly things delivered by faithful witnesses declaring the effective work of a Christian baptizing a person into union with the People of God.

As for the unbelievers, they have no need to see the “magic” of the “sacramental hocus pocus” in a kind of scientific proof as he wrote to chessnerd321, et.al.; an unbeliever has only to see the good works we do, the love we have for the brethren, both superficial sights, and desire to participate in this brotherhood, this People. “Here is water”, says the desiring soul, “What is to prevent you from baptizing me so that I can be one of you?”
Nicodemus could not say that to Jesus on that night he came in secret to see him, though later he moved in that direction.

It is the insiders, the disciples who are taught faithfully to observe all delivered to them, it is these insiders that realize the truth of the Gift of the Holy Spirit, as they go about doing the works of the Father, believing on him whom the Father has sent.

John Martin

BTW, Sophie111 - I write to those who are the faithful, but might not think deeply about your logic, your reasoning, and your misconceptions about the faith, so that these I write to might not be led astray - you attempt to lure people with popular opinion, the desire to be with the crowd, rather than to trust the official news proclaimed by legitimate official representatives (apostolic succession) of God and his Christ.
As that 2000 year old writing would say it, “he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,” Your scientific demonstration would be the “works done by us in righteousness”, which avail nothing - the unbeliever must be baptized and confirmed (Baptism and Confirmation Hocus Pocus)

 

[Rayne2Step]

I haven’t read all of the responses so if I am repeating something already stated please forgive me. Sanctifying Grace, the life of GOD within us is given to us at baptism. Salvation is really when we begin to co-operate with the will of GOD for our lives to remain in that state of sanctifying grace so that we may be useful as ministers. When we are not in that state of grace and because of shame we may stay away from GOD, stay away from ministry which hurts the kingdom. So yes baptism is a life changing experience. Peace be with you

 

[Cjbhoward]

May I humbly point out that non Christian persons are changing their lives drastically without the “marks” (whatever you mean now) of baptism or circumcision.Conversion from sin to grace does not seem to be an experience monopolised by Christians.

I don’t believe we are changed by Baptism. I never stated as much. Everyone baptized in the bible (other than Jesus) converted first, then was baptized.

Cornelius in particular. Paul himself.

The Baptist said, “Repent & be baptized.” Not be baptized so you can repent.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Yes, Baptism does change a person. I have dealt with people from Catholic to atheist and in between. The ones who are baptized understand me and what I say re religion better than those who aren’t baptized.

Rom. 6: 3-11 is the Epistle for Baptism in the Byzantine Tradition. St. Paul in his other Epistles writes that we have put off the old man and put on the new, and live accordingly. This is a lifelong task. St. Francis de Sales said that we will be free of certain faults only 15 minutes before we die. (Please forgive me dear Saint if I misquoted you!)

 

[Vico]

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.

Infants do not sin mortally, because they do not have the required use of reason. Once the use of reason appears, then mortal sin could occur. There must then be a “flowering of baptismal grace” but the appearance of it as a change would depend upon the person.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. the catechism has its proper place here.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

According to CCC, the baptism would save the one from the power of darkness. Therefore the baptism would change the one’s life drastically. Right or no?

I went into Baptism as a alcoholic and addicted to porn and masturbation. Came out the other side of baptism with the desire to get drunk complete gone and with the grace to cut that other stuff out too. Fell two times in 5 years to masturbation and 2 times I got drunk. Have not looked at porn once since baptism. I went to confession every time necessary. And those incidents happened a year after baptism but I have been good for the 4 years since then.

Now you tell me, does that sound like Baptism changed my life dramatically or not?

 

[Needy1]

That’s amazing!!

 

[Needy1]

So the baptism remove the lust from people, sometimes?

 

[Mintaka]

Baptism changes us into adopted children of God, and permanently marks our souls; and therefore it increases our capacity to respond to grace.

Now, obviously the amount of change seen by us humans is not going to be the same as what God sees. The willingness to respond may be greater in some people. The difficulty of responding may differ, too. Also, God gives us His graces at different rates, over different stretches of time, and people get different amounts of help from those humans around them.

But there can be big visible changes. St. Cyprian has a nice letter about how his friend, who had just been baptized, had become such a great person in the short period since his baptism, and encouraging him to keep going. (I forget the letter number, but I think it is the one that starts by talking about hanging out in a grape arbor.)

 

[guanophore]

According to CCC, the baptism would save the one from the power of darkness. Therefore the baptism would change the one’s life drastically. Right or no?

Yes. A person who is living in cooperation with the grace of the sacrament will experience daily transformation in conforming to the character of Christ.

 

[Diaconia]

Yes, it absolutely does.

The day of your baptism is the most important day of your life.

Cooperating with the grace of that gateway sacrament is different from person to person.

 

[Sophie111]

Baptism changes us into adopted children of God, and permanently marks our souls; and therefore it increases our capacity to respond to grace.

I would say choosing to join a community professing to love God and one’s neighbour is putting ourselves in a place that is conducive to this.
But then so can other people of good will do the same by joining other communities who will lift them beyond there own individual resources - by other initiation rites (eg circumcision etc).
I would suggest it is the desire/willingness to convert that is the more drastic and significant part of this process before God.