Does 'Baptism of Desire' have its limits?

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If I have understood our Church’s position correctly (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paras. 847-848), it appears to maintain that Baptism of Desire covers those who may not necessarily have submitted to the Church in the regular way through the Sacrament of Baptism. Needless to say this decidedly does not invalidate the missionary mandate and so the Church “…still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelise all men” (para. 848). However the very fact thatsome non Catholics have aspirations after goodnes would seem to imply that they aspire after the benefits which Holy Baptism declares.

Now this whole notion of incorporating men, on account of some nebulous ‘desire’, into the Church somehow recalls Karl Rahner’s ‘anonymous Christianity’, which of course has been the target of much debate and an abundance of criticism. Is not this a very patronising approach towards people of other religions?, I mean does it not seem that we are doing them a favour by regarding them, albeit implicitly, as anonymous Christians? Some people would contend that this sort of ‘honorary’ granting of Christian citizenship to those who have not requested it, and indeed have, in some cases, positively resisted it (as is true of both Muslims and Jews), just savours of sheer imperialism. As Catholics what would our reaction be if we were to be told by ardent representatives of Islam, that we are in fact regarded as ‘anonymous Muslims’?

Unless I am clearly missing something, it seems that ‘baptism of desire’ could cover almost any conceivable response and that the ecclesiastical net is being thrown very widely indeed. One could surely argue that this is simply a less offensive way of expressing universalism, with its misguided hope that all men will ultimately be saved. My question reduces to this: has our Church adopted a too inclusivist position with regards to incorporation into the body of Christ?; are we saying in effect that the Church is the sphere where men explicitly acknowledge Christ and the Gospel whom others implicitly acknowledge by showing kindness, unselfishness or loving concern for others, even though they reject Him and declare themselves agnostics? To push this even further, is it possible for the atheist in good faith to be numbered among those who love God and despise self? Furthermore, how do we square all of this with the traditional contention, promulgated by Boniface VIII in the papal bull of 1302, the Unam Sanctum, that ‘outside the Church there is no salvation’?; Again was the well known Father Leonard Feeney incident in the 1940’s really about our Church being embarrassed by its traditional stance and wanting to silence Feeney in the interests of the new ecumenism, not simply because he was just plainly wrong?

Forgive a recent converts dubiety, but this really does seem redolent of the old heresy of universalism so beloved of Liberal Protestantism. Your comments please.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
I think you have to have faith in Christ to get the baptism of desire, therefore an athiest or a muslim or a jew couldn’t really get it. Basically you would need to be a Christian who has not been officially baptised.
 
I think you have to have faith in Christ to get the baptism of desire, therefore an athiest or a muslim or a jew couldn’t really get it. Basically you would need to be a Christian who has not been officially baptised.
hmm, do you have any documents to back this up? This sounds a little irregular.
 
Baptism of desire (Latin Baptismus Flaminis) is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian ritual, because of death, nevertheless bring about the fruits of Baptism, if their grace of conversion included an internal act of perfect love and contrition which automatically cleanses the soul of all sin. Hence, the Catechism of the Catholic Church observes, “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament” (CCC 1259).
 
Baptism of desire (Latin Baptismus Flaminis) is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian ritual, because of death, nevertheless bring about the fruits of Baptism, if their grace of conversion included an internal act of perfect love and contrition which automatically cleanses the soul of all sin. Hence, the Catechism of the Catholic Church observes, “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament” (CCC 1259).
I think the Catechism (and Lumen Gentium) goes a little further than just catechumens who die before their baptism (or those that explicitly desire baptism):

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
 
I don’t think that baptism of desire contradicts Unam Sanctam, but that it (and Vatican II) clarified how one can be part of the Church.

Here is an interesting article on Unam Sanctam and that “problem”:

bringyou.to/apologetics/debate9.htm
 
=Portrait-If I have understood our Church’s position correctly (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paras. 847-848), it appears to maintain that Baptism of Desire covers those who may not necessarily have submitted to the Church in the regular way through the Sacrament of Baptism. Needless to say this decidedly does not invalidate the missionary mandate and so the Church “…still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelise all men” (para. 848). However the very fact thatsome non Catholics have aspirations after goodnes would seem to imply that they aspire after the benefits which Holy Baptism declares.
Now this whole notion of incorporating men, on account of some nebulous ‘desire’, into the Church somehow recalls Karl Rahner’s ‘anonymous Christianity’, which of course has been the target of much debate and an abundance of criticism. Is not this a very patronising approach towards people of other religions?, I mean does it not seem that we are doing them a favour by regarding them, albeit implicitly, as anonymous Christians? Some people would contend that this sort of ‘honorary’ granting of Christian citizenship to those who have not requested it, and indeed have, in some cases, positively resisted it (as is true of both Muslims and Jews), just savours of sheer imperialism. As Catholics what would our reaction be if we were to be told by ardent representatives of Islam, that we are in fact regarded as ‘anonymous Muslims’?
Unless I am clearly missing something, it seems that ‘baptism of desire’ could cover almost any conceivable response and that the ecclesiastical net is being thrown very widely indeed. One could surely argue that this is simply a less offensive way of expressing universalism, with its misguided hope that all men will ultimately be saved. My question reduces to this: has our Church adopted a too inclusivist position with regards to incorporation into the body of Christ?; are we saying in effect that the Church is the sphere where men explicitly acknowledge Christ and the Gospel whom others implicitly acknowledge by showing kindness, unselfishness or loving concern for others, even though they reject Him and declare themselves agnostics? To push this even further, is it possible for the atheist in good faith to be numbered among those who love God and despise self? Furthermore, how do we square all of this with the traditional contention, promulgated by Boniface VIII in the papal bull of 1302, the Unam Sanctum, that ‘outside the Church there is no salvation’?; Again was the well known Father Leonard Feeney incident in the 1940’s really about our Church being embarrassed by its traditional stance and wanting to silence Feeney in the interests of the new ecumenism, not simply because he was just plainly wrong?
Forgive a recent converts dubiety, but this really does seem redolent of the old heresy of universalism so beloved of Liberal Protestantism. Your comments please.
Warmest good wishes, Portrait
FYI! And welcome Home!

The only vaild application of Baptism is true necessity. When one simply has NO OPPORTUNITY for Water Baptism in The Spirit. It’s not a substitue it is only an emergecy relplacement.
**
John 3:5** "*"5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. * That seems clear enough:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,
 
I don’t think that baptism of desire contradicts Unam Sanctam, but that it (and Vatican II) clarified how one can be part of the Church.

Here is an interesting article on Unam Sanctam and that “problem”:

bringyou.to/apologetics/debate9.htm
Dear ThuriferAcolyte,

I am not quite sure how Vatican II “clarified how one can be part of the Church”, but it does seem that within the Catholic Church something of a revolution in attitude towards the non-Catholic religions evidently took place in Vatican II. It is incontrovertible that the Church did articulate a much more inclusivist view in which the grace of God was claimed to be operating in and through the other world religions because of God’s desire to offer salvation to all men (see Lumen Gentium 16 & Nostra Aetate 2).

Interestingly the above official teaching coincided with the work of Karl Rahner, refered to in my previous posting, who was an official adviser at Vatican II. Now was the Council unduly influenced by Rahner’s ultra radical views? If so then it might explain why the Council adopted a more inclusivist approach to the non-Catholic religions than had been the case hitherto.

Be that as it may, I do think that there is a great deal of fallacious reasoning as regards the world religions, very often by theologians who ought to know better. Are not these religions hopelessly idealised, at least to some extent, by our Church? The worlds religions are not kindly debating societies, on the contrary they are a morass of supersition, ignorance, exploitation, oppression and fear. Moreover, do the world’s religions really act as a ‘preparation for the Gospel’ by preparing their adherents for the revelation of Christ? With all the charity in the world this view just cannot be sustained. If salvation is to be found by the adherents of these religions, it may well be found while they are still in them, but it will be found not because of them, but rather in spite of them.

Warmest good wishes

Portrait
 
Dear ThuriferAcolyte,

I am not quite sure how Vatican II “clarified how one can be part of the Church”, but it does seem that within the Catholic Church something of a revolution in attitude towards the non-Catholic religions evidently took place in Vatican II. It is incontrovertible that the Church did articulate a much more inclusivist view in which the grace of God was claimed to be operating in and through the other world religions because of God’s desire to offer salvation to all men (see Lumen Gentium 16 & Nostra Aetate 2).

Interestingly the above official teaching coincided with the work of Karl Rahner, refered to in my previous posting, who was an official adviser at Vatican II. Now was the Council unduly influenced by Rahner’s ultra radical views? If so then it might explain why the Council adopted a more inclusivist approach to the non-Catholic religions than had been the case hitherto.

Be that as it may, I do think that there is a great deal of fallacious reasoning as regards the world religions, very often by theologians who ought to know better. Are not these religions hopelessly idealised, at least to some extent, by our Church? The worlds religions are not kindly debating societies, on the contrary they are a morass of supersition, ignorance, exploitation, oppression and fear. Moreover, do the world’s religions really act as a ‘preparation for the Gospel’ by preparing their adherents for the revelation of Christ? With all the charity in the world this view just cannot be sustained. If salvation is to be found by the adherents of these religions, it may well be found while they are still in them, but it will be found not because of them, but rather in spite of them.

Warmest good wishes

Portrait
Thanks for explaining. Let me ask you a question: Do you believe that those documents say or imply that one can be saved through their other religions?

When I said Vatican II, I was referring to Lumen Gentium, which I believe clarifies how one can be part of the Church, since everyone that is saved is somehow, whether perfectly/explicitly in communion with the Church (as we are) or those that are imperfectly in communion with it.
 
Thanks for explaining. Let me ask you a question: Do you believe that those documents say or imply that one can be saved through their other religions?

When I said Vatican II, I was referring to Lumen Gentium, which I believe clarifies how one can be part of the Church, since everyone that is saved is somehow, whether perfectly/explicitly in communion with the Church (as we are) or those that are imperfectly in communion with it.
Dear ThuriferAcolyte,

Yes I do think those documents point in that direction, especially Lumen Gentium 16 which states quite specifically that some “can obtain eternal salvation”.

The other, Nostra Aetate, is a tad more guarded and cautious in that Jesus is refered to as the way, the truth, and the life - a sort of doffing of the hat to the traditional teaching of the Church. Notwithstanding there had been a radical shift in the teaching of our Church, that seems to be conceded by both Protestant and Catholic scholars of various theological hues.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
See Baltimore Catechism of 1891
Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.
Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
(1) Has been validly baptized;
(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.
Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.
Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
A. Such persons are said to belong to the “soul of the church”; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.
Q.
 
Dear Joe Kelley,

Thankyou for your posting. I have heard a great deal of the famous Baltimore Catechism and believe that it was, and indeed still is, held in high esteem within our Church.

However, this notion about being in the ‘soul of the Church’ but not actually in the body seems to me problematical. Now it does not require much acumen to see the flaw in this even from the Catholic point of view, for it makes membership in the body optional. Yet it is membership in the body, which for us catholics is to be equated with the Catholic Church, that is fundamental.

We don’t appear to be making much headway in this thread, the only thing that seems to be emerging out of our discussion is that as regards the salvability of non-Catholics the Church seems to entertain some charitable hope. It is saying, if I have understood correctly, that those who have been nursed in ignorance or prejudice, have not had the offer of salvation through no fault of their own, can, owing to the fact that Christ tasted death for every man and is the propitiation for the sins of the entire world, ‘obtain eternal salvation’ at length. Are we saying then that God will not in the end abandon those who have not known (for whatever reason) and therefore have not intentionally declined His offer of grace?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
=ThuriferAcolyte;5755442]Thanks for explaining. Let me ask you a question: Do you believe that those documents say or imply that one can be saved through their other religions?
When I said Vatican II, I was referring to Lumen Gentium, which I believe clarifies how one can be part of the Church, since everyone that is saved is somehow, whether perfectly/explicitly in communion with the Church (as we are) or those that are imperfectly in communion with it.
The answer is “YES”… can be, might be, BUT NOT “will be.”

God has to be Just and fair or He would not be God. Everyone will be judged on there deeds. *1 Peter 1: 16-17 ** * “since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile”.

Catholics and non-catholics alike will be so judged. Further, God being “perfectly fair and Just” will judge opportunity to know THEE truth, but rejecting such, as actually knowing and not adhereing to the instruction.

Love and prayers,
 
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