Does Catholicism Agree with or Disagree with the idea of Eternal Security

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sirach2v4

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The is the scripture forum: requesting a scriptural answer or approach.

The reason I ask, apparently my relative is an evangelical and believes in eternal security and says Catholics are 100% damned – I surmise the condemnation is because we do not subscribe to eternal security
 
sirach2v4 said:
The is the scripture forum: requesting a scriptural answer or approach.
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Here are some Bible verses that teach against eternal security:

Mark 4:16-17 - “And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.”

Heb. 10:26-27 - “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.”

Rom. 11:22 - “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

2 Pet. 2:20-21 - “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Many more Bible verses on this subject can be found at the following link: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/LOSS.htm Scroll to the section called “The Bible on Falling-Away”

Catholics aren’t 100% damned, we’re just repeating what the Bible teaches on this point.
 
On God’s end, we have eternal security in the sense that we can be %100.00 positive that God will fulfill all of his promises, that he will accept the prayers of a contrite sinner and pardon her, that - through prayer - he will deliver the graces sufficient for us to obey him, and that he unerringly cannot deceive nor be deceived in any of his judgements. The insecurity lies in ourselves, and in the danger of offending God, and since we are a fallible creature, we cannot infallibly state our eternal security. The Divine Will intends for us to have a healthy fear of our ourselves accompanied with an absolute trust in Him.
 
This is from the Council of Trent, session 6:
CHAPTER XII.
That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.
No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.
 
@sirach2v4 and @Church Militant - Thank-you for posting your information; much appreciated.
 
Ecclesiasticus/Sirach 15:14-20

He himself made human beings in the beginning, and then left them free to make their own decisions. If you choose, you will keep the commandments and so be faithful to his will. He has set fire and water before you; put out your hand to whichever you prefer. A human being has life and death before him; whichever he prefers will be given him. For vast is the wisdom of the Lord; he is almighty and all-seeing. His eyes are on those who fear him, he notes every human action. He never commanded anyone to be godless, he has given no one permission to sin.
 
sirach2v4 said:
The is the scripture forum: requesting a scriptural answer or approach.

The reason I ask, apparently my relative is an evangelical and believes in eternal security and says Catholics are 100% damned – I surmise the condemnation is because we do not subscribe to eternal security
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Articles Refuting “Once Saved, Always Saved”

Assurance of Salvation?
catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

Can We Lose Our Salvation?
By Trent Horn
catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/can-we-lose-our-salvation
 
Catholics do believe that The Elect persevere–but only God knows who The Elect are!

Catholics also believe that those who are once saved or currently saved do not necessarily always equal those who will be saved–The Elect–in other words from a human viewpoint which is in time and not outside of time like God’s viewpoint is–one can lose his salvation.

We are gracefully saved by that faith which continues through God willed works unto death. Mortal sin interrupts grace. Grace must be flowing when we die and not interrupted by mortal sin for us to get to Heaven.

While Catholics can never presume that they will persevere with a 100% certainty they can have a moral certainty–which is less than absolute certainty–that IF in God’s view that they obey God’s commandments–are in a state of grace–receive the sacraments–and do “for the least of Jesus’ brethren”–that they will be saved.

Satan cannot pluck the saved out of Jesus’ hand but Jesus will LET His followers leave. He let followers leave in John 6:66 who thought eating His flesh and drinking His blood was a hard saying.

He even challenged the 12 disciples and said “Do you want to leave, too?”

Jesus picked Judas and let him leave.

Here is a paradox but it is true–“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” but trust in Jesus when you cry out “Jesus, son of David, Have Mercy on me a sinner”. Jesus saved the thief on the cross–He can save anyone!
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Catholics do believe that The Elect persevere–but only God knows who The Elect are!
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Here’s the problem, though: that is precisely the Protestant (OSAS) understanding of eternal security. The implication of that belief is that, if you are truly saved (i.e., at your baptism), then nothing you can do will tear you away from God, but that, if you’re not truly saved, then you’re ripe for the plucking.

The danger of this doctrine is the implication that, if we say “I’m a true Christian” then we can act with impunity, because we’re implicitly saying that we’re already saved and nothing we do can change that.
Catholics also believe that those who are once saved or currently saved do not necessarily always equal those who will be saved–The Elect–in other words from a human viewpoint which is in time and not outside of time like God’s viewpoint is–one can lose his salvation.
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Again, this is not substantially different than the OSAS belief; the only difference between the two are the labels you use. What you, here, call “will be saved”, they call “already saved”, and what you call “once saved” or “currently saved” – with the implication that they lose their salvation – they call “unsaved”.

The place that the Catholic and OSAS doctrines diverge is that the OSAS side says that, among the living, there are already those who are ‘saved’; the Catholic doctrine says that we cannot place the label ‘saved’ on those who are still alive. We who are alive are still “working out our salvation”; we are in the process of being saved (having been justified and having been cooperating with the graces we received at baptism and through the reception of the sacraments). As Catholics, we say that the label ‘saved’ can only apply to us once we have passed away, and at the particular judgment Jesus has told us that we have inherited heaven.
While Catholics can never presume that they will persevere with a 100% certainty they can have a moral certainty–which is less than absolute certainty–that IF in God’s view that they obey God’s commandments–are in a state of grace–receive the sacraments–and do “for the least of Jesus’ brethren”–that they will be saved.
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Right – we have security, but only in the faithfulness of God to His promises.
 
I agree that we are not saved until after death. I do though believe that God knew our fate before we were born. I believe St. Thomas Aquinas would concur in that.

We are not puppets. All are saved by God’s grace. All who go to Hell go there by their own choice.

God has perfect foreknowledge. Now some will say that God predestines because he knows the future free will choice of people. Others will say that means that god is not sovereign because his predestining is contingent on man’s choices.

I say that–God predestines and has perfect knowledge at the same time because He is pure act–one need not come before the other.

Do I understand how God predestines while man also freely chooses? No–it is a mystery.

On a scale of 0 to 100 with the Molinists being 0 and the Thomists being 100 I would put my belief at 75. I think Father Most comes the closest of anyone at explaining the issue.

i think St. Thomas Aquinas somewhere or the other when talking about the issue of people being blotted out of the Book of Life says it is true in one sense and not true in another sense.

Maybe some out there could help me with these concepts.

The greatest thing about grace and freewill though is that God gives everyone SUFFICIENT grace–we all are given enough graces to make it to Heaven–we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and not with an attitude of OSAS because even though we are given sufficient grace we still have freewill and could go to Hell by our own choice!
 
sirach2v4 said:
The is the scripture forum: requesting a scriptural answer or approach.

The reason I ask, apparently my relative is an evangelical and believes in eternal security and says Catholics are 100% damned – I surmise the condemnation is because we do not subscribe to eternal security
Click to expand...
That’s also known as Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) and no. Their doctrine is that must perform the following works of 1) asking Jesus Christ into their hearts as their personal Lord and Savior, 2) receipting the “sinners prayer” and 3) making an “alter call”. Once they have performed these works, they believe that all of their sins, not just the ones that they have already committed, but all of the sins they will commit in the future are already forgiven and even if they were to commit murder or rape, they will not be condemned.

Eternal Security or OSAS is an unbiblical, false, man-made doctrine invented 1,600 years after Jesus founded His Church.
 
The fundamental problem is a misunderstanding of the nature of the atonement. Protestants believe that Christ, being the sin offering, becomes guilty of our sin and by His death (infinite in value) all sin dies with Him. Therefore the one that believes on Christ has no reason to fear his sins because they died with Christ and Christ’s righteousness is somehow theirs.

The problems with this are manifold.
  1. If Christ were guilty of sins of world at His death then He could not be the spotless sacrifice acceptable to God. Therefore the atonement would not be salvific for anyone.
  2. If Christ takes all sin into death then everyone goes to Heaven. That is why the protestants all more or less and to varying degrees accept the ‘doctrine’ of limited atonement. So that those sins that perish with Christ are ONLY the sins of the elect.
  3. If all of my sins die with Christ and i am no longer guilty of them then why should I repent? the protestant answer to this is, “Well because it shows your faith.” The obvious problem with this is that it makes all repentance phantom and reduces the Christian walk to outward show and a beauty contest of trying to prove to each other and God that we don’t have sin.
A right understanding declares not that Christ died guilty of our sins, but that He is the acceptable sacrifice who atones (purchases, ransoms) all the Earth. In this He becomes the Judge of the Whole World (which He says in John) and because of this God commands all men to repent (which St Paul says on Mars Hill). Therefore we (as St Augustine said) are baptized into Christ’s body and so become one with His Church and so “it is no longer I who live but Christ that lives in me” and that we long for escape from this “body of death”.

And our assurance is that Christ’s promises to us are vindicated by His resurrection (Mars Hill again) and so when we are baptized and receive the Spirit in baptism “we are dead in Christ and raised again with Him by the same Spirit which raised Him from the dead” and so the Spirit, who is grieved by our sins, works with us to bring us to repentance in the assurance that God will forgive us because Christ has promised and God cannot lie.

So a man that refuses to repent, and does not seek out the Church has no right to expect that he is saved. Even if he be baptized, if he then spends the rest of his life in persistent unrepentant sin then how can he assume to belong to the God he tries so hard to escape from?

And so a man who is baptized and clings to the Graces can absolutely be assured that God’s promises are valid and that he is safe in his faith because of his faith. Remember it is St Paul who says that if Christ is not raised then we are pitiable fools, and in the same way if we cannot be sure of the One who has promised then why should we bother? It is because we are certain, not that we know God’s will, but that we know God is not capricious.

But this is NOT OSAS. It is a clear and robust teaching from Scripture (with a lot of paraphrasing from me) that contradicts OSAS and it attendant ‘doctrines’ of limited atonement, double predestination, and reprobation.

God Bless
 
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