Does Civil Marriage count?

[jerrytuxedo]

Can a divorced Anglican who’was baptized in that faith remarry a divorced Catholic who was married and divorced in a civil ceremony? The divorced Anglican has desires to convert to Catholism and has been studying informally for some time. My reading is that this is impossible because both were previously in a sacremental marriage. Here’s the facts:

1. the divorced Anglican was baptized as an Anglican and married a Methodist before a Methodist minister. They later divorced and have been divorced for years.
2. the divorced Catholic was married in a civil ceremony and later obtained a civil divorce.

Please advise.

 

[wanner47]

From my understanding, both would need declarations of nullity before being able to validly marry in the Catholic Church. It would be a sin to marry civilly regardless.

The Catholic could probably get a lack of form annulment, since s/he married outside the Church initially. The Anglican would have to go through the full process.

 

[1ke]

Can a divorced Anglican who’was baptized in that faith remarry a divorced Catholic who was married and divorced in a civil ceremony? The divorced Anglican has desires to convert to Catholism and has been studying informally for some time. My reading is that this is impossible because both were previously in a sacremental marriage. Here’s the facts:

1. the divorced Anglican was baptized as an Anglican and married a Methodist before a Methodist minister. They later divorced and have been divorced for years.
2. the divorced Catholic was married in a civil ceremony and later obtained a civil divorce.

Please advise.

The Anglican and Catholic need to approach the Catholic’s priest and begin the premarital investigation process.

Both marriages will need to be investigated, and the Anglican’s marriage will likely require a full tribunal investigation for nullity.

The Catholic’s marriage is also investigated, however if he married outside the Catholic Church without the proper dispensations then he has what is called a “lack of form” and this is not a full tribunal process, but does involve paperwork.

Step 1: Go talk to the Catholic priest and get the ball in motion.

 

[jerrytuxedo]

Thanks to everyone for advice. It seems to agree 100% with what I’ve read previously. Clearly agrees with “A Guide To the Annulment Process in the Catholic Church” which is a book authored by a Australian bishop. Presently the other person is wary of the chance of failure and doesn’t want to discuss much less consider visiting with a Priest. And I’m having to contend with the other person in this relationship turning to friends rather than to me as if the process result is a foregone conclusion. Clearly has affected the relationship. Unfortunately both of us are past midlife and the timing seems urgent. I’ll continue to pray for a resolution.

 

[jerrytuxedo]

The Anglican and Catholic need to approach the Catholic’s priest and begin the premarital investigation process.

Both marriages will need to be investigated, and the Anglican’s marriage will likely require a full tribunal investigation for nullity.

The Catholic’s marriage is also investigated, however if he married outside the Catholic Church without the proper dispensations then he has what is called a “lack of form” and this is not a full tribunal process, but does involve paperwork.

Step 1: Go talk to the Catholic priest and get the ball in motion.

 

[jerrytuxedo]

Earlier today I posted a request for advise re: the Ne Temere Decree. Presently I can’t find it on this site. So I’ll paraphase what I’m trying to seek advise about.

Within the Ne Temere (on marriage) decree is the following:

“#3 Non-Catholics, whether baptized or unbaptized, if they marry among themselves are in no way bound to observe the Catholic formal betrothal or marriage.”

My question is: does this mean the non-Catholic (in our situation an Anglican) whoi is presently converting to Catholicism but has been divorced from a wedding by a Methodist minister (in his office) required to get a nullification? Please advise.

 

[SpaceNeedle]

My question is: does this mean the non-Catholic (in our situation an Anglican) whoi is presently converting to Catholicism but has been divorced from a wedding by a Methodist minister (in his office) required to get a nullification? Please advise.

Yes, a Declaration of Nullity would be required, or at least that is my understanding.

In fact, all marriages that have civilly ended require some type of Declaration of Nullity for remarriage; in the case of two nonbaptised persons Pauline Privilege can be granted once the person converts. If a Catholic marries outside the Church without proper dispensation, it is lack of form. Pretty much everything else, by and large, is formal process.

 

[1ke]

Earlier today I posted a request for advise re: the Ne Temere Decree. Presently I can’t find it on this site. So I’ll paraphase what I’m trying to seek advise about.

Within the Ne Temere (on marriage) decree is the following:

“#3 Non-Catholics, whether baptized or unbaptized, if they marry among themselves are in no way bound to observe the Catholic formal betrothal or marriage.”

My question is: does this mean the non-Catholic (in our situation an Anglican) whoi is presently converting to Catholicism but has been divorced from a wedding by a Methodist minister (in his office) required to get a nullification? Please advise.

Yes. Non-Catholics marry vadidly among themselves. Therefore a divorced non-Catholic who is presently in another marriage would indeed need to have their prior marriage(s) investigated by the tribunal for validity or nullity. One does not “get a nullification.” One submits the facts surrounding a marriage to the Tribunal and they make a finding on whether or not a valid marriage exists. One is not guaranteed to have their marriage found null, it may be found valid.

 

[jerrytuxedo]

Yes. Non-Catholics marry vadidly among themselves. Therefore a divorced non-Catholic who is presently in another marriage would indeed need to have their prior marriage(s) investigated by the tribunal for validity or nullity. One does not “get a nullification.” One submits the facts surrounding a marriage to the Tribunal and they make a finding on whether or not a valid marriage exists. One is not guaranteed to have their marriage found null, it may be found valid.

May I ask another question?

You seem to be you seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject matter. I have read that an authority at “Catholic Answers” has written (recent case of Catholic Answer filing against the IRS re: Section 4955 assessment) and I quote: “…to treat Protestant “Communion” as one treats Catholic Communion is to engage in the sin of idolatry which is worshipping as God something that isn’t God.” My point is: if the Church doesn’t consider a non-Catholic communion as being valid why does it recognize a non-Catholic wedding as being valid?

I ask because one of the parties to the original query: “Does Civil Marriage count?” is having trouble obtaining historical baptismal record due to age of the event. The Anglican Church simply can’t locate baptismal records from World War II days.

 

[1ke]

My point is: if the Church doesn’t consider a non-Catholic communion as being valid why does it recognize a non-Catholic wedding as being valid?

Those who lack valid Holy Orders do not have a valid Eucharist because the priest is the minister of the Sacrament.

In marriage, the bride and groom are the ministers of the Sacrament. They confer the Sacrament upon each other. In the case of Catholic marriages, the priest is a witness of the marriage-- not the minister of the Sacrament. Therefore, non-Catholics who are baptized validly confer the Sacrament upon each other when they marry. Those who are unbaptized enter into what are called valid, natural marriages. A natural marriage is valid, but not indissoluable. A sacrament is indissoluable.

I ask because one of the parties to the original query: “Does Civil Marriage count?” is having trouble obtaining historical baptismal record due to age of the event. The Anglican Church simply can’t locate baptismal records from World War II days.

There may be other avenues, such as an affidavit by witnesses of the baptism if still living. The Tribunal should be able to guide the person in the case in which baptism cannot be proven.

 

[jerrytuxedo]

Those who lack valid Holy Orders do not have a valid Eucharist because the priest is the minister of the Sacrament.

In marriage, the bride and groom are the ministers of the Sacrament. They confer the Sacrament upon each other. In the case of Catholic marriages, the priest is a witness of the marriage-- not the minister of the Sacrament. Therefore, non-Catholics who are baptized validly confer the Sacrament upon each other when they marry. Those who are unbaptized enter into what are called valid, natural marriages. A natural marriage is valid, but not indissoluable. A sacrament is indissoluable.

There may be other avenues, such as an affidavit by witnesses of the baptism if still living. The Tribunal should be able to guide the person in the case in which baptism cannot be proven.

Again, thank you for your helpful advise, insight and patience. Bless You!

 

[Individual138]

Can a divorced Anglican who’was baptized in that faith remarry a divorced Catholic who was married and divorced in a civil ceremony? The divorced Anglican has desires to convert to Catholism and has been studying informally for some time. My reading is that this is impossible because both were previously in a sacremental marriage. Here’s the facts:

1. the divorced Anglican was baptized as an Anglican and married a Methodist before a Methodist minister. They later divorced and have been divorced for years.
2. the divorced Catholic was married in a civil ceremony and later obtained a civil divorce.

Please advise.

OPEN QUESTION or FOLLOWUP QUESTION:
Does the October 20th announcement of Rome “taking in” the Anglicans who want to switch to Roman Catholicism" affect the above question? That is, is the situation now one of a divorced Anglican and a divorced Catholic but both require a nullification?