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USMC_Convert
Guest
Not sure if I want to laugh or cry…
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dshix
Guest
To the evil man, the worst thing that could possibly happen to him is death. It is the moment at which he is ripped away from all the pleasures he indulges himself with, and is thrown into the eternal fire of damnation.
Therefore, he tries to rationalize death, to reduce or put off his fear of it.
Therefore, he tries to rationalize death, to reduce or put off his fear of it.
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STT
Guest
Death is just a change in state of affair.
meltzerboy
New member
This is complex, to say the least, and, at the same time, speculative. Certainly it gives one pause and provides much food for thought. We are, as a species, only at the beginning of understanding the wonders of the universe (or multiverse) and its natural and physical processes. We also know so little about the biochemical mechanisms of the body and the psychobiological properties of the brain and the mind. A brave new world awaits us, provided we are willing to maintain an open mind. I believe all such scientific discoveries reveal the unfolding of G-d’s design.
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GEddie
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dshix
Guest
That’s fine. Note that I didn’t say that only evil men fear death. I said that for evil men, “death is the worst thing that could possibly happen to him”. For the just man, not so, because death is the passing from this life into eternal life with God.
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RomanoAmerio
Guest
Quantum mysticism is quite amusing if you know a little physics.
That does not prevent me from seeing, as a Catholic, that Mr. Lanza’s views are arrant nonsense.
That does not prevent me from seeing, as a Catholic, that Mr. Lanza’s views are arrant nonsense.
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Fiasco
Guest
And it has probably been exploited by shysters to found even more New Age-type cults to lure itchy-eared gullible types farther from the Truth.Quantum mysticism is quite amusing if you know a little physics.
That does not prevent me from seeing, as a Catholic, that Mr. Lanza’s views are arrant nonsense.
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Beryllos
Guest
This is nothing new. Lanza is merely rehashing his same old pseudo-scientific theory called biocentrism. A few years back, we discussed it here at CAF (thread here). What I wrote in that thread applies just as well now: In the view of biocentrism, life and consciousness are the god that created and sustains the universe, and in which Lanza places his hope for eternity. It is a bunch of scientific-sounding concepts coupled with New Age fantasies.
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SecretCatholic
Guest
With less sophistication, I hear this argument all the time. I remind those who tell me this that energy is just a physical phenomena that can be manipulated, and that they better hope that their soul is more than just a physical phenomena.
In this new-age mindset, we are “energy” and God is a “force”. I remind them that gravity and magnetism are also forces, and yet I don’t owe them any thanks. In fact, I tell them that if God is a force, then I am greater than this god, for it is sub-personal and I am a person who can think and feel, unlike gravity and magnetism.
Some atheists are honest at least and admit that if there is no God this is all there is. But this nonsensical double-talk is really dangerous to some people- because it allows them to believe that there is some kind of afterlife, but without responsibilities or repercussions. Where does the energy from your body and brain go when you die? The same place that the energy from a hot stove or a ventilator go when they turn off. There is no personhood there. There is no survival there. Unless you identify yourself as a mere sub-personal piece of matter or energy, which is nonsensical.
And the multiverse theory? It has no real evidence to support it and some good evidence opposing it. Besides, all universes die. What happens then?
These attempts at some kind of poetic but ultimately substance-less arguments at rationalizing death as something other than the end of a person from a materialist point of view are sad. It takes the longing in the heart for immortality and twists it to justify an empty, meaningless world view.
In this new-age mindset, we are “energy” and God is a “force”. I remind them that gravity and magnetism are also forces, and yet I don’t owe them any thanks. In fact, I tell them that if God is a force, then I am greater than this god, for it is sub-personal and I am a person who can think and feel, unlike gravity and magnetism.
Some atheists are honest at least and admit that if there is no God this is all there is. But this nonsensical double-talk is really dangerous to some people- because it allows them to believe that there is some kind of afterlife, but without responsibilities or repercussions. Where does the energy from your body and brain go when you die? The same place that the energy from a hot stove or a ventilator go when they turn off. There is no personhood there. There is no survival there. Unless you identify yourself as a mere sub-personal piece of matter or energy, which is nonsensical.
And the multiverse theory? It has no real evidence to support it and some good evidence opposing it. Besides, all universes die. What happens then?
These attempts at some kind of poetic but ultimately substance-less arguments at rationalizing death as something other than the end of a person from a materialist point of view are sad. It takes the longing in the heart for immortality and twists it to justify an empty, meaningless world view.
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Dante221
Guest
OK
I officially have a headache
I officially have a headache
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3DOCTORS
Guest
I found myself reading between the lines of that piece. In some ways, it may not be as different from Christian belief as it sounds. Except perhaps for the multiverse bit. I’ve thought about how God is in eternity, and even the Saints we pray to, starting with the Blessed Mother herself, are in eternity yet we “interface” with them when we ask for their intercession, and they with us, sometimes quite directly with physical world evidence (Therese of Lisieux’s showers of roses, anyone?).
I’ve also pondered Judgment Day - in God’s mind, awareness, whatever you call it, it’s a done deal, right? God isn’t bound by space and time the way we are. It’s beyond my ability to wrap my mind around the question any further than that, but it has occurred to me.
Another way I read between the lines of that piece is to pick up on the very real grief the doctor has for his sister and how apparently she had been dealt a difficult hand in life. Sounds like he was one of the few of the family who was really caring. He himself probably suffered from the same callous attitudes from the parents and others. They may not have been raised with any genuine faith and from the looks of it not much compassion either. So the poor fellow is grasping at straws in the area he knows - science - in his efforts to process his sister’s death. I may not agree with his conclusions theologically or scientifically, but I think he is on a spiritual quest. Perhaps one day he will find faith in God.
The piece reminds me of some Doctor Who episodes I’ve seen where sometimes people do get to change outcomes of events, but usually at a price. The emotional tone of such stories is usually how deeply the person is suffering. I think the stories like that reflect human longing to not have to suffer loss of those we love. Catholics believe in redemptive suffering but it takes a lot of knowledge of the Faith, and a good deal of courage, faith, wisdom, and repeated practice to be able to apply that.
:twocents:
I’ve also pondered Judgment Day - in God’s mind, awareness, whatever you call it, it’s a done deal, right? God isn’t bound by space and time the way we are. It’s beyond my ability to wrap my mind around the question any further than that, but it has occurred to me.
Another way I read between the lines of that piece is to pick up on the very real grief the doctor has for his sister and how apparently she had been dealt a difficult hand in life. Sounds like he was one of the few of the family who was really caring. He himself probably suffered from the same callous attitudes from the parents and others. They may not have been raised with any genuine faith and from the looks of it not much compassion either. So the poor fellow is grasping at straws in the area he knows - science - in his efforts to process his sister’s death. I may not agree with his conclusions theologically or scientifically, but I think he is on a spiritual quest. Perhaps one day he will find faith in God.
The piece reminds me of some Doctor Who episodes I’ve seen where sometimes people do get to change outcomes of events, but usually at a price. The emotional tone of such stories is usually how deeply the person is suffering. I think the stories like that reflect human longing to not have to suffer loss of those we love. Catholics believe in redemptive suffering but it takes a lot of knowledge of the Faith, and a good deal of courage, faith, wisdom, and repeated practice to be able to apply that.
:twocents:
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Tim_D
Guest
Yep. Many of the pop “scientists” of today use quantum physics as the basis of their work, starting with the nonsense of the “multi-verse.” Lawrence Krauss uses it in his book to explain how something came from nothing. Of course, he redefines “nothing” so that it is a quantum vacuum that contains heat, energy, particles and gravity. That’s akin to saying that there is nothing in the fridge except a turkey, chicken, soup, roast beef and vegetables.Quantum mysticism is quite amusing if you know a little physics.
That does not prevent me from seeing, as a Catholic, that Mr. Lanza’s views are arrant nonsense.
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1neophyte
Guest
Why? The psalmist says that the death of the faithful is precious in the eyes of the Lord. There is no Paschal Mystery without death. And you hate it with all that is in you? Yikes.
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SecretCatholic
Guest
Similarities in all belief systems abound. But all things that are similar, but not the same, are also different. Protestantism is similar to Catholicism, but it is also very different. Islam is similar to Catholicism, but it is also very different.
He has to have reasons to come to the conclusions he does. And, as they have no authentic scientific basis, this indicates that his reasons may have more to do with him wanting to believe in an afterlife without having to believe in God and the supernatural.
I have no doubt that his conclusions are part of a yearning and thus search for him. The trouble is that these conclusions are wrong and may well lead him down the wrong path in his life, spiritually. Also, by publishing and preaching on him, he may well lead OTHERS down the wrong path, and actually lead them AWAY from God and the duties he has given us, instead of towards him.
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3DOCTORS
Guest
True. I just meant maybe it is a little closer. Probably I should have been more clear and specific about that. I was thinking about the possibility that God’s grace can take a little spark of good in a person and fan it into a flame, which is what I hope happens in this case.
And that occurred to me also, and is a problem, especially when articles such as this get compelling headlines and attract attention. I wouldn’t publicize the piece myself for that reason - unless I was planning to write an analytical response that would spotlight the Catholic position on the points he makes. I was more just musing when I wrote my previous post. I suppose it may have sounded like a defense of his position in a way. It just seemed like people were rather dismissive and snarky so I was trying to dig deeper.
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Regular_Atheist
Guest
I am afraid of death. I actually sometimes feel afraid of the idea of Hell.
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SecretCatholic
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I think that’s absolutely true. It all depends upon the individual’s free response to God’s grace.
A noble pursuit. It more valuable to analyze and consider instead of simply criticizing and dismissing, although the latter is the greater inclination for us fallen human beings.
When I was an agnostic, I did not fear Hell.
When I was in the process of coming back to the Church, I went through a moment when I emotionally felt like an atheist (which I had never felt- I was always open to the possibility of God, but not committed to it.). It was an awful, cold, mechanistic feeling. Then I came to ponder on Hell and was afraid of it for the first time.
The fear subsided. I do not seek God for mere fear of Hell. I think that would be a rather empty seeking. But if Hell does truly exist- then we must also take it into consideration, just as we do all other natural consequences of our actions.
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dshix
Guest
Well, I think that’s a good thing. It is really important for every man to think about what his final end might be…
I, too, find the thought of being in Hell utterly terrifying. There, all five of our senses will be bombarded with the most horrible agonizing suffering, pain which is unimaginable to us even now. The thought of suffering that kind of agony for all eternity, and knowing that it will never end, sends a shiver down my spine.
That’s why I’m Catholic. It has been said that life is the hardest for Catholics, but death is the easiest for them, because we know from our faith that death is just a passing from this life to the next, and if we have lived in accordance with God’s Divine Law, we do not need to fear Hell.
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