Does everyone eventually get into Heaven?

[Verisimilitude]

Or is there an opportunity after death to make a final decision? It would seem almost obvious to me that if given that chance any soul would choose to want to live with God, but some might not. With one exception:

"Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. "

The reason I ask is the finality of such statements of say; dying with a mortal sin and no opportunity to ask for forgiveness results in eternal damnation.

Scripture also seems to suggest the end is not so final.

Matthew 20:1-16
The land owner appears to hire everyone, and each gets the same wage despite when they started working. “So shall the last be first and the first last. For many are called but few chosen.” is a common NT saying that seem so indicate the “many” is humanity, and the “chosen” is the elect.

Mark 2:15-17
“For I came not to call the just, but sinners.” assumes that some living are just and need maybe not as much Grace as others.

Matthew 21:28-32
"31 Which of the two did the father’s will? They say to him: The first. Jesus saith to them: Amen I say to you that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you. "

This seems to suggest that since He was speaking to those who eventually handed Him over to the Romans who killed Him, they would eventually get into Heaven as well.

There are many parables that end with “There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth”, but I can’t seem to find any that say this is forever or eternal.

Some who do not know Christ lead moral and just lives, just as some who have heard the Good News, but reject it can and do lead a moral life. It is also clear that many who know the Good News lead less than a moral life.

To me, I feel somewhat hypocritical when I can know and believe the promise of salvation through Jesus, and yet I continue to sin. I acknowledge that my belief in Christ helps me maybe sin less in my day to day life, but I still sin. To think just because my luck in living in a country that permits me religious freedom, the benefit in being raised in the Catholic church, the grace at having left it for many years and willingly coming back to her gives me an advantage to eternal life that the African bushman 200 years ago who died before the missionaries reached them to hear the Good News, or raised in a Muslim country indoctrinated into what I feel is a false faith, or China or Russia where they promote no faith.

Indeed, Christ has been given everything from the Father, and that nothing the Father has given him should be lost.

If Purgatory exists as Catholics believe, could this not also be an opportunity to all humans be reconciled with God despite what they have done on in their life on Earth?

Matthew 26:28: For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Why do we limit the grace of God? Will He not forgive 77 (innumerable) times?

 

[Church_Militant]

Or is there an opportunity after death to make a final decision?

Nope, and there is no Biblical or historical Christian context to believe such a thing.

 

[Verisimilitude]

What Biblical or historical Christian context gives creedence to purgatory untill 1000 years after Christ?

 

[Church_Militant]

What Biblical or historical Christian context gives creedence to purgatory untill 1000 years after Christ?

Purgatory is not a last chance…you have an erroneous understanding of it.

Read these articles:
Purgatory
andThe Roots of Purgatory

 

[Verisimilitude]

I’m sorry, that doesn’t cut it.

Who was Christ speaking to when he said:
“I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).?

My original questions remained unanswered, and your pat responses infer an erroneous understanding. Nothing in my quoted references imply He was speaking to only those who accept Jesus. In fact, most are to those who do not.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Or is there an opportunity after death to make a final decision? It would seem almost obvious to me that if given that chance any soul would choose to want to live with God, but some might not. With one exception:

The normal understanding of Purgatory is that it is for those who desire heaven and have some contrition for their sins, but who are not yet ready for it. Once in Purgatory eventual salvation is assured.
Whether everyone in fact goes either to Purgatory or Heaven, or if any souls are lost, we don’t know. The Church has never declared anyone to be definitely in Hell, but only a tiny number are declared to be definitely in Heaven.

 

[dylanschrader]

It sounds like you’re advocating something similar to what Origen proposed in the early Church. I believe he called it the “apocatastasis.”

You might want to look up what he wrote and read some of the responses of the Church Fathers.

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m sorry, that doesn’t cut it.

Who was Christ speaking to when he said:
“I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).?

My original questions remained unanswered, and your pat responses infer an erroneous understanding. Nothing in my quoted references imply He was speaking to only those who accept Jesus. In fact, most are to those who do not.

“Accept Jesus” is an n-C term that I do not use.

As for your assertions…what do you thing that verse in Luke 12:59 means if not the purification of Purgatory.

You asked where it was from before 1000 AD… One of the articles I linked you to plainly shows ECF references from the 2nd century.

No everyone does not eventually get into heaven…if one is in hell there is nothing in scripture that says that one ever exits there.

Here’s a list of scriptures that might help.
Purgatory

2 Sam 12:13-18		Revelation 21:27
Matthew 5:48		Hebrews 12:22-23
1 Corinthians 3:13-15	Matthew 12:32, 18:32-35
Revelation 20:12-15	James 5:20
1 Peter 4:8		Colossians 1:24

Then of course don’t neglect 2nd Maccabees 12:39: On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
41: So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;
42: and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43: He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

 

[Verisimilitude]

It sounds like you’re advocating something similar to what Origen proposed in the early Church. I believe he called it the “apocatastasis.”

I’m sure my thoughts are not new, but I’m not exactly advocating this belief. It often comes to my mind when I read scripture, which is fairly often. To the many anti-Catholics who denounce the faith because of how a loving god could destroy/torment for eternity much of His creation due to unhappy chance of place of birth, or government that prohibts a free expression of humanity.

I don’t see how it would affect the Catholic faith or teachings, other than to allow more people to join, and to benefit humanity in the knowledge we all share in that forgivness already.

I recognize the danger in such doctrine in that it could lead to anarchy, but that danger hardly disputes its validity if it is so. I will look for what the Church Fathers wrote about it. Thanks.

 

[water]

“Accept Jesus” is an n-C term that I do not use.

As for your assertions…what do you thing that verse in Luke 12:59 means if not the purification of Purgatory.

You asked where it was from before 1000 AD… One of the articles I linked you to plainly shows ECF references from the 2nd century.

No everyone does not eventually get into heaven…if one is in hell there is nothing in scripture that says that one ever exits there.

Here’s a list of scriptures that might help.
Purgatory

2 Sam 12:13-18		Revelation 21:27
Matthew 5:48		Hebrews 12:22-23
1 Corinthians 3:13-15	Matthew 12:32, 18:32-35
Revelation 20:12-15	James 5:20
1 Peter 4:8		Colossians 1:24

Then of course don’t neglect 2nd Maccabees 12:39: On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
41: So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;
42: and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43: He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

and also,
Mark 10:25
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,

Matt. 18: 3
And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[dylanschrader]

I’m sure my thoughts are not new, but I’m not exactly advocating this belief. It often comes to my mind when I read scripture, which is fairly often. To the many anti-Catholics who denounce the faith because of how a loving god could destroy/torment for eternity much of His creation due to unhappy chance of place of birth, or government that prohibts a free expression of humanity.

I don’t see how it would affect the Catholic faith or teachings, other than to allow more people to join, and to benefit humanity in the knowledge we all share in that forgivness already.

I recognize the danger in such doctrine in that it could lead to anarchy, but that danger hardly disputes its validity if it is so. I will look for what the Church Fathers wrote about it. Thanks.

I’m not sure that what you’re proposing is exactly the same as the apocatastasis, but the theory of Apocatastasis was condemned at the Council of Constantinople in 543, so that theory is not consistent with the Church’s faith.

The Second General Council of Lyons in 1274 and the Council of Florence in 1438 declared that souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision.

Benedict XII declared in Benedictus Deus that “the souls of those who die in a state of grievous personal sin descend immediately into Hell.” This is also found in the Athanasian Creed and among the Church Fathers as well as in the Bible.

So, the eternity of Hell is established as well as the fact that those who die in mortal sin go immediately to Hell.

Also, those who die with original sin cannot receive the Beatific Vision, although this does not mean that they go to Hell.

 

[Verisimilitude]

As for your assertions…what do you thing that verse in Luke 12:59 means if not the purification of Purgatory.

I accept that it referes to the purification of Purgatory. I’m just not sure it was intended to be understood as limited to the Elect.

I also don’t use that term “accept Jesus” regularly. Unintentional.

 

[Della]

To the many anti-Catholics who denounce the faith because of how a loving god could destroy/torment for eternity much of His creation due to unhappy chance of place of birth, or government that prohibts a free expression of humanity.

You can rightly and happily answer them that they are simply wrong about this. God is not unjust. He is merciful to all who call upon him with the grace he has given them, be they born Hindu or Muslim or Catholic. What the Church teaches about the possible salvation of non-Christians is found in the CCC:

Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I don’t see how it would affect the Catholic faith or teachings, other than to allow more people to join, and to benefit humanity in the knowledge we all share in that forgivness already.

I’m afraid I don’t quite follow you here. If you are saying (not saying that you are) that people aren’t allowed to join the Church because of their heritage, that is incorrect. The Church has missions throughout the world–wherever they are allowed to function. And many believers who must practice their faith underground.

I recognize the danger in such doctrine in that it could lead to anarchy, but that danger hardly disputes its validity if it is so. I will look for what the Church Fathers wrote about it. Thanks.

If you are talking about possible salvation for everyone, then you will find that the Church Fathers did not support such an idea–only the heretics did.

Your great concern over the fate of souls is admirable, but they won’t be saved by changing doctrine. They can be saved by God’s grace and our efforts to bring the Gospel to them. To that end we can all pray, donate time, talent, and treasure as God enables us/calls us to do. Yes?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Your great concern over the fate of souls is admirable, but they won’t be saved by changing doctrine. They can be saved by God’s grace and our efforts to bring the Gospel to them. To that end we can all pray, donate time, talent, and treasure as God enables us/calls us to do. Yes?

I am not advocating a change in doctrine. I admire the Church in sticking to doctrine in the face of social pressures. It is that fact that has brought me back to her, and has strengthened my faith.

When Christ said “I am the Way, Truth, and Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I can accept this because it was only through His sacrifice that sin can be washed away.

I appreciate the “possible salvation” explanation, but as it says. possible, it remains indeterminate to us to know.

For the billions that have existed in that state before and after Christ, for anyone to say with such finality, as many do, that unless you have heard and accept, and live by the Good News, they are damned.

My point of the original post was that question. Isn’t it possible that once we die and we stand in judgment, where I think all Knowledge and Truth becomes obvious to us, we might be once again asked to make a choice?

Those that have had the knowledge in Life, but rejected it may repent.

Those that did not know may well acknowledge the Truth of their conscious if they lived in such a Way may accept what they knew gladly, and receive that Life. They would still only attain God through Jesus.

Does that change Church doctrine or support it? Yes, the purpose of the Church is obvious and well needed to spread the Word so that this life may be better lived. The more that know, hopefully, the less sin there is to be forgiven.