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Cat_Herder
Guest
Yes. To choose sin is to choose hell.
Of course, we are all sinners.
Thankfully God wants everyone to be saved and so He provides means to accomplish that. But being free, we must choose those means to avoid hell.
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Of course, we are all sinners.
Thankfully God wants everyone to be saved and so He provides means to accomplish that. But being free, we must choose those means to avoid hell.
S
Snerticus
Guest
No, you DO have to believe in Jesus. But you also have to be sorry for all the wrongs you’ve done.
Look, it’s more complicated than this and if it were as easy as a few sentences in a thread on a web forum I think more atheists would understand what Christians understand (and vise versa). There’s a lot of theology that goes into play and boiling it down to a few sentences so you can understand probably won’t do it. Although I have to say there are times when both parties are on the same page and understand each other right off the bat. But this is not one of them.
In order for you to understand why we think the way we do, specific ideas need to be addressed in a certain order. I don’t have a clue what your own personal beliefs are so I can only guess as to what you will understand or what you won’t understand. Evidently, you do not understand rudimentary Christian theology. I erroneously thought you had an understanding of at least that much, so I’m sorry if I came across as sounding like you don’t need to believe in Jesus. You do. But don’t forget the second qualifier. If you’re not sorry for your wrongs in your life, then how can you go to heaven?
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Snerticus, you jumped ahead to the question of what those means are and you accidentally gave a Protestant definition thereof.
Atheists accept only reason and not faith until given sufficient reason to accept divine revelation (Christ, the Bible, the Church). So we have a long way to go before even getting to rudimentary theology. Take it slow.
I must leave this thread in your capable hands for a while. Go for it.
But don’t concede that theology is complicated or take offense from the questions. Our Catholic Faith is reasonable and CAN be explained on a web forum. It just takes time and patience.
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Snerticus
Guest
Sure, it can be, but not in a few sentences to an atheist who doesn’t comprehend faith.
I know what I was saying was Protestant-like. However you have to begin somewhere and I thought perhaps that was the best way to begin.
My bad.
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Snerticus
Guest
I didn’t take offense from the questions. I took offense at my own inadequacies of trying to explain the answers.
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ncgolf
Guest
What makes you think God does not exist?
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Edwin78
Guest
Hi Chanel 
Now think about the implications of that. First of all, that means God has a Will, because a being needs to be able to make a decision to create something.
Second, God is not bound by the laws of the universe, because He made those laws and the universe. That includes space and time. With regards to space, He can and is everywhere and anywhere. He is omnipresent.
It is God being not in the confines of the universe’s time that is most intriguing, at least for me. One of the main implications of this is that God has no beginning. You see, everything in the universe is caused by something. Trace all of that causation, and it all goes back to (if I understand current science correctly) the Big Bang. But what caused the Big Bang? If we can go back still, we will go to that one Principal Cause of everything that has no preceding cause: God. God is Eternal.
Another main implication of God not being confined by time is that God perceives time differently from the creatures of this universe. Since He is outside time, each and every point in time in the Universe is the same for Him. Each and every moment in time is “now” for Him. One million years ago, and even farther in the past, is as “now” for God as is one million years from now, and even further in the future. He lives in the Eternal Now.
Since He lives in the Eternal Now, all the knowledge that ever was, is, and will be is known to Him. There is no need to study anything, no need to experience anything. From time eternal, God knows. He is omniscient.
Also since He lives in the Eternal Now, there is no gap between what God intends and the fruition of that intention. When God intends to do something, He does not need to prepare materials or Himself or energy or whatever. What God wills, is. That is, what God intends, as long as it is not self-contradicting or contradicting God’s nature, it is done already. God is omnipotent
Compared to God, we humans have what is called imperfect wills. We can change our minds about our decisions because we need time to learn what are the consequences of our actions.
We have already established that God is omniscient. Since God’s omniscience is tied to His perception of time, God also knows ALL the consequences of His own actions even before He acts. Therefore, God cannot make a mistake in making decisions; He cannot change His mind later on, because He does not need time to know the consequences of His actions. God has a perfect will.
God lets hell exists because it is the natural consequence of free will of creatures. Evil is simply the absence of God, as good is the presence of God. That is why Einstein’s note about evil simply not existing (because it is just the absence of God) relevant to the discussion of free will, because to go to hell, you must reject God. Hell is a person’s choice, not God’s. If you really do not want God, then God has no choice, because He respects your free will. He just gives you what you want: hell. And God knew that from the very beginning.
God bless you.
Well, let us think about that for a second. Let us suppose that there is a God Who created the whole universe.
Now think about the implications of that. First of all, that means God has a Will, because a being needs to be able to make a decision to create something.
Second, God is not bound by the laws of the universe, because He made those laws and the universe. That includes space and time. With regards to space, He can and is everywhere and anywhere. He is omnipresent.
It is God being not in the confines of the universe’s time that is most intriguing, at least for me. One of the main implications of this is that God has no beginning. You see, everything in the universe is caused by something. Trace all of that causation, and it all goes back to (if I understand current science correctly) the Big Bang. But what caused the Big Bang? If we can go back still, we will go to that one Principal Cause of everything that has no preceding cause: God. God is Eternal.
Another main implication of God not being confined by time is that God perceives time differently from the creatures of this universe. Since He is outside time, each and every point in time in the Universe is the same for Him. Each and every moment in time is “now” for Him. One million years ago, and even farther in the past, is as “now” for God as is one million years from now, and even further in the future. He lives in the Eternal Now.
Since He lives in the Eternal Now, all the knowledge that ever was, is, and will be is known to Him. There is no need to study anything, no need to experience anything. From time eternal, God knows. He is omniscient.
Also since He lives in the Eternal Now, there is no gap between what God intends and the fruition of that intention. When God intends to do something, He does not need to prepare materials or Himself or energy or whatever. What God wills, is. That is, what God intends, as long as it is not self-contradicting or contradicting God’s nature, it is done already. God is omnipotent
Now that we have gone through the basics of God’s nature, we can answer your questions.
Compared to God, we humans have what is called imperfect wills. We can change our minds about our decisions because we need time to learn what are the consequences of our actions.
We have already established that God is omniscient. Since God’s omniscience is tied to His perception of time, God also knows ALL the consequences of His own actions even before He acts. Therefore, God cannot make a mistake in making decisions; He cannot change His mind later on, because He does not need time to know the consequences of His actions. God has a perfect will.
God lets hell exists because it is the natural consequence of free will of creatures. Evil is simply the absence of God, as good is the presence of God. That is why Einstein’s note about evil simply not existing (because it is just the absence of God) relevant to the discussion of free will, because to go to hell, you must reject God. Hell is a person’s choice, not God’s. If you really do not want God, then God has no choice, because He respects your free will. He just gives you what you want: hell. And God knew that from the very beginning.
Sin is the rejection of God. That’s all it is.
God bless you.
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stephe1987
Guest
Hell in simplified terms means “the absence of God,” so in fact, YOU choose your eternal destination. God doesn’t “send” anyone to hell, people send themselves there. Of course, for some people, spending an eternity with God would be much worse than going to hell, so hell is the best choice for them. If you don’t like the teachings of the Bible, the laws of God, you would probably actually be happier in hell.
What is hell like? Well, there is supposedly a burning feeling to the degree of your sins you committed in this life. If you were horrible, your fire will be much worse than a person who just committed a few minor sins and chooses to be without God. It’s not the same for everyone. God is just and people have to be punished for their crimes. There is also a theory that the pain comes from being separated from God, since we were, in fact, created to be close to Him.
There are people that believe we will be given one last chance to repent our sins immediately after we die. This leads to the teaching of purgatory, since we all have sins and need to be cleansed before being allowed into heaven. Otherwise, nobody could possibly be “clean” enough and we’d all go to hell. I guess purgatory is like hell in that there is pain, but this time it is only temporary.
Does God have free will? Actually, no. He does not act outside His own nature. If it’s not in His nature to be evil (which it is not), He isn’t going to be evil. However, that doesn’t mean that a created being cannot choose to commit evil acts, since created beings do have free will. It is also outside His nature to contradict himself. (Can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it? No. An all-powerful being can lift anything, so it’s impossible to create something He cannot lift. That’s like saying, if God is God, then He is not God.)
Regarding the existence of evil, have you ever thought that there might be a reason why evil is allowed to exist? We are being tested. Everyone has different situations they must face, and how they act is going to be judged when we die. We are judged on how we act and repent for our sins, how well we help others in need, and even on how we treat those who have done wrong.
Is the world perfect? No, but it wasn’t meant to be. It was meant to be a temporary existence (we are all mortals, and the oldest verified woman only lived to be 122, most people don’t even live that long) where people can choose to accept or reject God (actions and choices lead to heaven or hell). This life was also meant to give people pleasure (just look at the beauty in nature!) as well as challenges and hardships, to see how we deal with each situation.
What is hell like? Well, there is supposedly a burning feeling to the degree of your sins you committed in this life. If you were horrible, your fire will be much worse than a person who just committed a few minor sins and chooses to be without God. It’s not the same for everyone. God is just and people have to be punished for their crimes. There is also a theory that the pain comes from being separated from God, since we were, in fact, created to be close to Him.
There are people that believe we will be given one last chance to repent our sins immediately after we die. This leads to the teaching of purgatory, since we all have sins and need to be cleansed before being allowed into heaven. Otherwise, nobody could possibly be “clean” enough and we’d all go to hell. I guess purgatory is like hell in that there is pain, but this time it is only temporary.
Does God have free will? Actually, no. He does not act outside His own nature. If it’s not in His nature to be evil (which it is not), He isn’t going to be evil. However, that doesn’t mean that a created being cannot choose to commit evil acts, since created beings do have free will. It is also outside His nature to contradict himself. (Can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it? No. An all-powerful being can lift anything, so it’s impossible to create something He cannot lift. That’s like saying, if God is God, then He is not God.)
Regarding the existence of evil, have you ever thought that there might be a reason why evil is allowed to exist? We are being tested. Everyone has different situations they must face, and how they act is going to be judged when we die. We are judged on how we act and repent for our sins, how well we help others in need, and even on how we treat those who have done wrong.
Is the world perfect? No, but it wasn’t meant to be. It was meant to be a temporary existence (we are all mortals, and the oldest verified woman only lived to be 122, most people don’t even live that long) where people can choose to accept or reject God (actions and choices lead to heaven or hell). This life was also meant to give people pleasure (just look at the beauty in nature!) as well as challenges and hardships, to see how we deal with each situation.
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Snerticus
Guest
Wow, that’s about as clear and consise as one can get.
I wish I thought of it!- Status