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wmz13
Guest
Does God know (ahead of time) who will become a saint?
Thanks,
Matt
Thanks,
Matt
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Wesrock
Guest
Yes.
But I don’t know if “ahead of time” is an accurate way to frame God’s perspective of things.
But I don’t know if “ahead of time” is an accurate way to frame God’s perspective of things.
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Polycarp1
Guest
There is nothing God doesn’t know. He is eternally present which can be a hard concept for us to grasp as to us everything is seen as linear, past present and future. That God can know everything without interfering with the freewill He gave us is mystery in that it hasn’t been fully revealed to us and in any event human minds can’t contain God’s unlimited greatness and ability.
C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity described our lives like a line on a piece of paper where we are somewhere along the line. Our view of what is ahead and much of what has past is unclear to us. God’s who’s existence does not rely on time or space sees the whole page at once. Everything on that line is present to Him.
C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity described our lives like a line on a piece of paper where we are somewhere along the line. Our view of what is ahead and much of what has past is unclear to us. God’s who’s existence does not rely on time or space sees the whole page at once. Everything on that line is present to Him.
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tawny
Guest
Yes, God knows all & sees all.
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UpUpAndAway
Guest
God knows everything. Why would He not know this?
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Windmill
Guest
God gives every soul enough grace to get to Heaven. There is no person who, on their day of Judgement, will see their life and say to God, “You abandoned me and left me to damnation.” We will see the moments of grace that we refused, and we will see that God was always there, ready to help us along that path to sainthood…but it was our own choices against God that prevented us from being a saint.
So, does God know which souls will be saints and which will not? Of course. Does that mean he predestines some souls to Hell? No. We choose Hell. God’s sentence is totally just.
So, does God know which souls will be saints and which will not? Of course. Does that mean he predestines some souls to Hell? No. We choose Hell. God’s sentence is totally just.
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IWantGod
Guest
God also has actual knowledge of whose in heaven and whose in hell.
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rinnie
Guest
he knows everything.
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BobCatholic
Guest
The problem is that people are imperfect and can’t see these moments of grace, or don’t recognize them as such. Then what?
I want to become a saint, I just can’t seem to do it. Part of being a saint is accepting suffering with a big juicy
on one’s face without ever complaining. I can’t do that. Impossible for me.
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Wesrock
Guest
This passage comes to mind: “34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’”
Opportunities to do spiritual and corporeal works of mercy are opportunities to let God’s grace into our lives. We shouldn’t be waiting for bright neon arrow signs telling us where grace is and where God wants us to act. He’s asking us to transform our lives and live in this fashion, as these are all moments of grace, not just to wait for those ‘obvious’ moments or moments we need to discern as being from God. We shouldn’t need to discern whether each individual moment is from God or not, or even forget to look. They are all from God. Easier said than done, I know.
God doesn’t demand smiles. Perhaps we should enjoy if we can see it, but God has mercy on those who suffer even if they can’t. And there are saints in heaven who sometimes could not see the point, or who went through periods of darkness. It’s not about what you feel. It’s about what you will and do. And I mean willing and doing in terms of faith, for faith is not a feeling.I want to become a saint, I just can’t seem to do it. Part of being a saint is accepting suffering with a big juicy
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BobCatholic
Guest
So the rule is I must give away everything I own and my family and I starve because I must conform myself to those moments of grace. This is the part I’m struggling with. I’m not a monk. Are the only people in heaven those who are monks/nuns/clergy?
I can do spiritual works of mercy, the corporal ones I can’t do because I need them for myself first! I believe I need the oxygen mask on my face before I’m able to put oxygen masks on my family, if we’re in the airplane that hits turbulence and the oxygen masks come down.
I know faith is not a feeling. But since I don’t suffer well, the body of Christ condemns me for not doing it. I’ve been yelled at many times on this forum for not suffering with a
on my face.
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Wesrock
Guest
I don’t know what your particular struggles are, and I have no right to know. I can say that God knows you fully. He knows the soul he made for you, the mind and body he continually creates and sustains for you. He knows the temperament he gave you.
A man who starts with very little and is only capable of doing small things but does them fully committed to God may be smiled upon more than a man who’s been given everything on Earth, gives quantitatively more than the first man, but relatively less of Himself. God knows for whom things were more difficult and for whom things were more easy. And this is not just for physical or material wealth. A man who has a nice temperament may have a far easier time of being “nice” than a man with a poor temperament, for example. God knows what he gave you and that will be accounted for.
I wasn’t suggesting bankrupting yourself. Jesus Himself advised to remove the plank from your own eye before removing the splinter from another man’s, though I may be twisting His meaning there. But being a Christian isn’t so much supposed to be about looking for opportunities for grace, but transforming yourself so that you live every moment of your life responding to God’s grace. And let me say that I am very far from perfect in that regard. I’m struggling with that, too.
A man who starts with very little and is only capable of doing small things but does them fully committed to God may be smiled upon more than a man who’s been given everything on Earth, gives quantitatively more than the first man, but relatively less of Himself. God knows for whom things were more difficult and for whom things were more easy. And this is not just for physical or material wealth. A man who has a nice temperament may have a far easier time of being “nice” than a man with a poor temperament, for example. God knows what he gave you and that will be accounted for.
I wasn’t suggesting bankrupting yourself. Jesus Himself advised to remove the plank from your own eye before removing the splinter from another man’s, though I may be twisting His meaning there. But being a Christian isn’t so much supposed to be about looking for opportunities for grace, but transforming yourself so that you live every moment of your life responding to God’s grace. And let me say that I am very far from perfect in that regard. I’m struggling with that, too.
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Wesrock
Guest
God could “write” anything down if he chose. Where you go wrong is thinking is that it would be avoidable. God would not be prophesying a potential future that could be averted. It would be what was, is, and will be. It would not “change” anything within God’s knowledge, for it would have been his choice from all eternity to write it down and present it within time at any moment. God knows how you’d react under any given circumstances. He’d know how you’d react upon reading any given fate and would write that fate down accordingly, knowing exactly what your response would be to that and everything that follows in your life, in such a way that whatever is written comes to be following from your free choices in response to all these events.
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hu324b
Guest
Yes when Jesus was in the garden praying he accepted all the sins of those he was to die for . It is said that Satan was there to show all the sins of mankind he was to die for in an attempt to stop Jesus - if this is true then he saw all of our sins - could very well be why he was sweating blood - God pure and all good having to see the most horrible of sins - he suffered enormously - “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death” - a suffering that some people are not aware of.
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Wesrock
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How would it destroy free will? God doesn’t make “best guesses.” You are free to act however you want. God knowing you fully knows how you would respond in all situations. It would be a violation of free will if God were to write something down that, if you were free you would do differently, and then overrides your will to force you to do it anyway. That’s not what would happen here. If God preservers free will but were to share his knowledge, and if that sharing affects how everyone freely behaves, that naturally eliminates all possible things he could write down that would cause you to behave contradictory to what he wrote, meaning that the only things he would write are the things which, as a result of your free choices, still come about given your response to what he wrote.
God doesn’t make things up as He goes. He is not subject to time. All that is, past and present, all that could be and all that became actual, are already and have been eternally known to Him and factored into his eternal will for His creation.
God doesn’t make things up as He goes. He is not subject to time. All that is, past and present, all that could be and all that became actual, are already and have been eternally known to Him and factored into his eternal will for His creation.
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BobCatholic
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He must have seen me there. I’m that big of a disappointment to him.
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hu324b
Guest
You and me both - you don’t have that market cornered - now I feel bad for making the comment - if he did see you - your sins will and are forgiven - I would worry more if he didn’t see .
And tomorrow is a new day - the past does not matter - let it go. I remember as a child seeing a sign on the side of the highway and it would always make me feel better - it said
“Today is the first day of the rest of your life” - so you have a brand new start and the past is does not matter - today is what matters - you need to forgive yourself just like I had to.
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Wesrock
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I am using reason. What I am saying is essentially a possible worlds argument. There are possible worlds in which I would read God’s “predictions” and then those predictions still come true as a result of my free choice. If God were to write down such things, then he would only write what would fit these possible worlds. All other possible worlds in which a contradiction would be brought about are essentially eliminated from the ones God would create. Eliminated from being possible, really.
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Wesrock
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God knows how you would respond to whatever you read. If something he wrote caused you to act contrary to what he wrote, he wouldn’t write it but something else. Therefore, the only things written would be things you’d read and which would come about anyway such that there would be no contradiction. God sees all paths you’d choose freely under any circumstances, and he would choose to create the one with circumstances that brings about no contradictions. There would be such a possible world in which there are none. God knows which one it is. God already knows how you would respond, remember. If you think you could trick him and respond differently, he’s already aware of that (the “intellect” duel between Vizzini and Westley in The Princess Bride comes to mind here, with Vizzini repeatedly taking another step of analysis back… God already knows where you end with that). Things would be such, if God chose to create such a world, the things written would still be the things brought about. Self-fulfilling prophecies, if you will. At least, that’s a Molinist take on it.
You’re speaking as if God is acting within time. All of creation is part of one eternal act of God from outside time. God doesn’t adapt to circumstances. He has no need to. He knows everything perfectly and has willed things exactly as he intended to eternally. There is no new knowledge to him.
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