Does God Play With Dice?

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Let me pose two alternative views of creation:
  1. Deism: God sets the initial conditions and the let’s creation unfold by set natual laws, save for the occassional miracle, with or without random (unplanned) variation.
  2. Animism: Every quantum choice is an Act of God directed toward some future plan.
My question is not so much which is true but whether it matters. In neither case can we forsee the future. To some extent this is the question of free will writ large.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Let me pose two alternative views of creation:
  1. Deism: God sets the initial conditions and the let’s creation unfold by set natual laws, save for the occassional miracle, with or without random (unplanned) variation.
  2. Animism: Every quantum choice is an Act of God directed toward some future plan.
My question is not so much which is true but whether it matters. In neither case can we forsee the future. To some extent this is the question of free will writ large.
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-Say, “None in the heavens and earth knows the unseen except Allah, and they do not perceive when they will be resurrected.” An-Naml(27):65 , Qur’an

-And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. And He knows what is on the land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls but that He knows it. And no grain is there within the darknesses of the earth and no moist or dry [thing] but that it is [written] in a clear record. AL-An’am(6):59

26-[He is] Knower of the unseen, and He does not disclose His [knowledge of the] unseen to anyone
27-Except whom He has approved of messengers, and indeed, He sends before each messenger and behind him observers Al-Jin(72):26-27

51-Indeed, we aspire that our Lord will forgive us our sins because we were the first of the believers.” As-Shu’ra(26):51

Jesus was a messenger and God informed Him some knowledges :

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.” But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, “This is obvious magic.” As-Saff(61):6

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead – by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. Al-Imran(3):49

Maybe someone could bring something from Bible or Torah.

Every moment in universe is acted by wisdom and power of God either an electron or a star. And God conduct and direct the universe through laws which we can call gravity etc. And it is impossible to move in time to past or future. So we can see and predict some conclusions because God act in order. But we cannot know the details because God can know only. And if God does not inform nobody could know.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Let me pose two alternative views of creation:
  1. Deism: God sets the initial conditions and the let’s creation unfold by set natual laws, save for the occassional miracle, with or without random (unplanned) variation.
  2. Animism: Every quantum choice is an Act of God directed toward some future plan.
My question is not so much which is true but whether it matters. In neither case can we forsee the future. To some extent this is the question of free will writ large.
Click to expand...
God created all of existence, and it is all within his purview. Every movement of an atom is possible only because He allows it. However, he does not make our choices for us, and he does not restrict our free will in any way. Neither of your positions is a whole picture of reality.

As to if it matter, yes, it matters greatly. If you follow proposition 1, God does not care about us, we are simply one aspects of massive universe in which God has no particular stake. Given that he sent his only son to die horrendously to redeem us, simply so we could be with him, I’d say that is completely false. If you follow proposition two, we lack any semblance of free will. Since God created us to love him, and love can only be given by a free act of the will, if we lack the will to chose to love him, then we cannot love him, and our existence is meaningless.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
As to if it matter, yes, it matters greatly. If you follow proposition 1, God does not care about us, we are simply one aspects of massive universe in which God has no particular stake.
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Why does this follow from #1? I care a great deal about my children even though I can’t, and often choose not to, control their lives.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Why does this follow from #1? I care a great deal about my children even though I can’t, and often choose not to, control their lives.
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I guess I drew on a more traditional view of Deism, that of the uninterested ‘god’. Your suggestion really doesn’t sound like Deism at all because God has some direct involvement in what happens. If he interacts in an effort to improve our state in life, then it shows that he does care about us, and is not dissimilar from Catholic theology.

Could you explain how you intended point 1 to differ from standard Church teaching on the matter? I might be able to give you a better answer ^^
 
ProdglArchitect said:
I guess I drew on a more traditional view of Deism, that of the uninterested ‘god’. Your suggestion really doesn’t sound like Deism at all because God has some direct involvement in what happens. If he interacts in an effort to improve our state in life, then it shows that he does care about us, and is not dissimilar from Catholic theology.
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Perhaps I should not have used the loaded term “deism” (or “animism” for that matter), but I guess what I’m really asking is whether God’s caring for us must imply the He controls our fate or that if God does not control our fate then He must not care about us.
Could you explain how you intended point 1 to differ from standard Church teaching on the matter? I might be able to give you a better answer ^^
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This is what I’m trying to figure out. I’ve had many conversations that take the approach you have, that God must be intimately involved in our lives because he cares.

(Of course, the whole subject comes up in a different way with creationism vs. evolution. Would God allow evolution to unfold naturally or can we detect His hand in intelligent design?)
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Perhaps I should not have used the loaded term “deism” (or “animism” for that matter), but I guess what I’m really asking is whether God’s caring for us must imply the He controls our fate or that if God does not control our fate then He must not care about us.
Click to expand...
God caring for us implies that he desires the best for us, however, as with your example of the parent-child relationship, the parent allows the child to make their own decisions, even if those decisions are against the parent’s wishes. He does not control us precisely because he loves us enough to allow us the freedom to chose. When you care about someone, you certainly do what you can to lead them to what’s good, but you do not force them to make one choice or another; that would violate their free will.
This is what I’m trying to figure out. I’ve had many conversations that take the approach you have, that God must be intimately involved in our lives because he cares.
Click to expand...
God is intimately involved in our lives, but not in terms of micromanagement. He pours his grace out onto us constantly, always waiting just outside the door of our hearts, ready and waiting for us to let Him in. Whenever we do good, he is with us supporting us, and whenever we do evil his is with us, calling us to repent and accept his forgiveness.
 
God is a clockwork God in that He
made LAWS that are to be strictly
obeyed, but God is intimately involved
b/c He WANTS us to live healthy
lives and obey His laws, to fear them.
That is why He gave us the Bible
which explains and gives us examples
in the people of Israel to know what is
good and what is evil to do. That is
why it says:“Man shall not live by bread
alone, but by EVERY Word that proceeds
from the Mouth of God.” Matt. 4:4 also
see Matt. 6:25ff and Ps. 119:105
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Let me pose two alternative views of creation:
  1. Deism: God sets the initial conditions and the let’s creation unfold by set natual laws, save for the occassional miracle, with or without random (unplanned) variation.
  2. Animism: Every quantum choice is an Act of God directed toward some future plan.
My question is not so much which is true but whether it matters. In neither case can we forsee the future. To some extent this is the question of free will writ large.
Click to expand...
Yes, it matters greatly. Left on their own, humans will always make a total mess of things.
 
GLam8833 said:
God is a clockwork God in that He made LAWS that are to be strictly obeyed…
Click to expand...
This is an elightenment view of a mechanistic universe but not necessarily one that fits with a quantum mechanics view. If we allow that the universe is not mechanisitic, that does not strictly obey laws but is at least partially random, what are the theological implications?
 
ProdglArchitect said:
God caring for us implies that he desires the best for us, however, as with your example of the parent-child relationship, the parent allows the child to make their own decisions, even if those decisions are against the parent’s wishes. He does not control us precisely because he loves us enough to allow us the freedom to chose. When you care about someone, you certainly do what you can to lead them to what’s good, but you do not force them to make one choice or another; that would violate their free will.
Click to expand...
This is more or less the direction of my thought.

Some further thoughts: is there some sort of proto-free will inherent to the universe itself at the quantum level?

Could it be that God is loving and caring not by managing but simply by “being there”?
God is intimately involved in our lives, but not in terms of micromanagement. He pours his grace out onto us constantly, always waiting just outside the door of our hearts, ready and waiting for us to let Him in. Whenever we do good, he is with us supporting us, and whenever we do evil his is with us, calling us to repent and accept his forgiveness.
Click to expand...
Partly I am trying to get a hold on what this “grace” thing is. It’s a rather vague concept.
 
The article on Grace is good, the
only thing it FAILS to mention is
that if we live according to the
Spirit, we are freed from the “law
of sin” See Rom. 8:2
 
GLam8833 said:
The article on Grace is good, the
only thing it FAILS to mention is
that if we live according to the
Spirit, we are freed from the “law
of sin” See Rom. 8:2
Click to expand...
The Flesh and the Spirit.*
1
Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2
For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death.
3
For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4
so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit.
5
For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit.
6
The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace.
7
For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it;
8
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9
But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10
But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11
If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you.
12
Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
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Doesn’t this directly refer to actual graces which help elevate us above sin and direct us towards God, along with the sanctifying graces of Christ’s sacrifice?
 
Just for information’s sake…no Deist I know believes in miracles.

John
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
This is an elightenment view of a mechanistic universe but not necessarily one that fits with a quantum mechanics view. If we allow that the universe is not mechanisitic, that does not strictly obey laws but is at least partially random, what are the theological implications?
Click to expand...
St Thomas Aquinas says that “as to the order of divine providence, nothing in the world happens by chance, as Augustine declares.” This means that nothing happens in the world by sheer chance or randomness. What appears to us as a random or chance event according to some proximate cause as in the workings of nature is reduced to God as the first cause whose divine will nothing can resist. The efficacy of the divine will which is the cause of things and which works through secondary causes brings about its desired or intended effect. Nothing escapes the providence of God and His plan for the world even the free actions and sins of human beings. We depend on God and his causality even in the free exercise of our free will but God does not will or cause us to sin though without God we could do neither good or evil. The workings and forces of nature which are without free will are directed to their actions and ends ultimately by God as He is the first cause of all things. Human beings who possess intellect and free will have the power of choice and are master of their own actions and thus they are subject to praise and blame, unlike the whole of irrational nature.
 
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