Does God punish the damn?

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I’m confused.

I have long understood hell to be self-inflicted; that the the individual “chooses” hell; that the doors to hell are “locked from the inside”; and so the chief punishment of hell is separation from God.

The modern Catholic philosopher Edward Feser says that this view is only partially correct. He goes on to say:
So, for Aquinas, it’s not just that the damned, due to the fixity of their wills after death (as described in my previous post on this subject) perpetually choose something less than God and thus perpetually miss out on what would make them happy. It’s that they also suffer additional positive harms in addition to this loss, and that God ensures that this will happen.

This may sound hard to reconcile with God’s goodness. But in fact, on the Thomistic account it follows from God’s goodness. For inflicting on an unrepentant evildoer a punishment proportionate to his offense is a good thing, and the damned are precisely those who forever keep doing evil and refuse to repent, and thus merit perpetual punishment. Hence God, in his goodness, inflicts that punishment.
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edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/11/does-god-damn-you.html
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Now Aquinas, as huge as he is, is not infallible. Still, I cannot help but think this idea of hell as God’s punishment has found itself in traditional understandings of hell. There is that whole “pain of sense” people talk about when describing the alleged physical fires of hell, for example.

Hell only makes sense to me if its punishment is inherent to the nature of hell – or to the nature of sin, etc. In other words, I don’t understand how God should positively *punish *those in hell. It seems very human.

I have a hard enough time understanding hell as an unending state/place of torment. But with this additional element of God’s active punishment… it is even more difficult to swallow.

Any help would be appreciated.
 
catholic1seeks said:
I’m confused.

I have long understood hell to be self-inflicted; that the the individual “chooses” hell; that the doors to hell are “locked from the inside”; and so the chief punishment of hell is separation from God.

The modern Catholic philosopher Edward Feser says that this view is only partially correct. He goes on to say:

Now Aquinas, as huge as he is, is not infallible. Still, I cannot help but think this idea of hell as God’s punishment has found itself in traditional understandings of hell. There is that whole “pain of sense” people talk about when describing the alleged physical fires of hell, for example.

Hell only makes sense to me if its punishment is inherent to the nature of hell – or to the nature of sin, etc. In other words, I don’t understand how God should positively *punish *those in hell. It seems very human.

I have a hard enough time understanding hell as an unending state/place of torment. But with this additional element of God’s active punishment… it is even more difficult to swallow.

Any help would be appreciated.
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God is both merciful and just. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 99. God’s mercy and justice towards the damned

Article 1. Whether by Divine justice an eternal punishment is inflicted on sinners?

On the contrary, It is written (Matthew 25:46): “These,” namely the wicked, “shall go into everlasting punishment.”

Further, as reward is to merit, so is punishment to guilt. Now, according to Divine justice, an eternal reward is due to temporal merit: “Every one who seeth the Son and believeth in Him hath [Vulgate: ‘that everyone . . . may have’] life everlasting.” Therefore according to Divine justice an everlasting punishment is due to temporal guilt.

newadvent.org/summa/5099.htm#article1
 
Vico said:
God is both merciful and just. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 99. God’s mercy and justice towards the damned

Article 1. Whether by Divine justice an eternal punishment is inflicted on sinners?

On the contrary, It is written (Matthew 25:46): “These,” namely the wicked, “shall go into everlasting punishment.”

Further, as reward is to merit, so is punishment to guilt. Now, according to Divine justice, an eternal reward is due to temporal merit: “Every one who seeth the Son and believeth in Him hath [Vulgate: ‘that everyone . . . may have’] life everlasting.” Therefore according to Divine justice an everlasting punishment is due to temporal guilt.

newadvent.org/summa/5099.htm#article1
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I don’t understand.

I don’t see how it follows that just because a temporal choice leads to everlasting Heaven that a temporal choice should also lead to everlasting pain and suffering, especially considering our lack of knowledge and proneness to follow our passions (and so not make a complete, full choice for hell for the sake of hell).

God is love itself. I just don’t see how never-ending torture is compatible with that.
 
catholic1seeks said:
I don’t understand.

I don’t see how it follows that just because a temporal choice leads to everlasting Heaven that a temporal choice should also lead to everlasting pain and suffering, especially considering our lack of knowledge and proneness to follow our passions (and so not make a complete, full choice for hell for the sake of hell).

God is love itself. I just don’t see how never-ending torture is compatible with that.
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That idea is not what the logic addresses, rather that it is consistent that a temporal choice leads consistently to an eternal result.

Those that do not love God will continue not loving God after death of the body (self-exclusion). “He who does not love remains in death.” John 3:14. Love cannot be compelled because it requires a free will choice.
 
You might look around more on Dr. Feser’s blog for the explanation of confirmation in grace or in punishment. It could be helpful.

After death is the time when all comes to light, and God will give what is deserved. And those deserving will persist in what makes them deserving of what they are now getting from God. For now though, the rain falls on the just and unjust alike.
 
Think of it like this: final exams are coming up in the last semester of thenlast year of the school. The students have been taught or given sources for everything they need to pass the exams. The teachers have reviewed and even given them the questions which will be on the exams!

Some students will reject all that and goof off. They will get bad grades and do very badly in those classes. They will not have the chance to make it up: the lowering of their GPA will be there forever.

It is not as if God didn’t give us consciences, send Christ to teach us, establish a Church to give us the sacraments, etc. We don’t get tricked into Hell: we must actively decide to do bad things, strive for the wrong goals, mold our souls into ugly shapes.

Any valid excuse that a person has for committing serious sin is taken into account by God as a mitigating factor. Our problem is that God can see into our hearts.
 
From my experience, hell is self inflicted, some of it is caused to a struggling faithful by reading religious blogs. I was a sinner with no knowledge of mortal sin, I have always prayed and miracles happened to me, I rarely missed church and was very happy, after that knowledge I’ve become obsessed with sins, I lost my happiness, whenever I go to Church, I obsess over the idea if I am eligible for Communion or not. Today, I was in church, all I was thinking if I am eligible due to the fact that I saw nudity these past couple of days.

Back to the subject, I do not know how God’s judgment work, let’s take the recent event in Turkey, most of these people were in sinful state (kissing, immodest clothing, drinking, …), does it mean that all of them are going to hell like some fundamentalists are saying?
 
St_Francis said:
Think of it like this: final exams are coming up in the last semester of thenlast year of the school. The students have been taught or given sources for everything they need to pass the exams. The teachers have reviewed and even given them the questions which will be on the exams!

Some students will reject all that and goof off. They will get bad grades and do very badly in those classes. They will not have the chance to make it up: the lowering of their GPA will be there forever.

It is not as if God didn’t give us consciences, send Christ to teach us, establish a Church to give us the sacraments, etc. We don’t get tricked into Hell: we must actively decide to do bad things, strive for the wrong goals, mold our souls into ugly shapes.

Any valid excuse that a person has for committing serious sin is taken into account by God as a mitigating factor. Our problem is that God can see into our hearts.
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I was with you until your last line there.

There is no valid reason for committing a serious sin.

But the twist is, an act that might be a serious sin in a ‘normal’ environment, may not be a sin depending on the circumstance. (not that it’s a sin with validity, but rather, ‘not sin’ in the instance)

On the front end, there is a little wiggle room on rare occasions as well…

There is valid reason to seek dispensation when in an abnormal situation, for what would be an act of sin in a normal environment (sought rarely).
 
As I always do I will compare this to a marriage.

Imagine you rejected your spouse, you for all intensive purposes hate them, curse them, cheat on them and whenever you get a chance leave them.

How long do you think that marriage will last?

As for what hell is like, look into the Mystics and Saints of the Catholic Church. There are many descriptions of hell, all of them include the pain of separation from God, and the pain from their torments. Typically the torments are specific to the sins they committed during life. St. Bosco has a great explanation of hell in his dreams. Check out a book call the forty dreams of St. Bosco.

However, in reality, hell is a mercy given by God to those who reject Him. He could force them to love Him, force them into heaven, but in His mercy he grants them seperation from Him. To be with Him, the one they hate, would be more torturous for them.
 
I agree w/ the last poster, God has called
us into a Covenant of Blood w/ Him and just
like a marriage, separation and divorce can
happen, altho it hurts God very much and
His jealously is as great as His Love See
Canticles 8:6, as for Eternal Judgment, it
is Scriptural(Heb 6:1-2)“Therefore, leaving
the basic teachings of the Doctrine of God,
let us strive to be perfect, not laying again
the teachings about repentance from dead
works… and eternal judgment”
 
ffg said:
I was with you until your last line there.

There is no valid reason for committing a serious sin.

But the twist is, an act that might be a serious sin in a ‘normal’ environment, may not be a sin depending on the circumstance. (not that it’s a sin with validity, but rather, ‘not sin’ in the instance)

On the front end, there is a little wiggle room on rare occasions as well…

There is valid reason to seek dispensation when in an abnormal situation, for what would be an act of sin in a normal environment (sought rarely).
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There could be people living on a remote island with no access to the Gospel who engage in sinful marital practices. They may not be culpable, right?

And what I meant by my last line is that sometimes we tell ourselves things, bit God sees into our hearts. Sometimes God will see more good in our hearts than we know of; sometimes less than we thought.

This is why it is important to pay attention to what acts the Church teaches are sinful, as well as how to grow in holiness.
 
St_Francis said:
There could be people living on a remote island with no access to the Gospel who engage in sinful marital practices. They may not be culpable, right?

And what I meant by my last line is that sometimes we tell ourselves things, bit God sees into our hearts. Sometimes God will see more good in our hearts than we know of; sometimes less than we thought.

This is why it is important to pay attention to what acts the Church teaches are sinful, as well as how to grow in holiness.
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‘last line’ being what I replied to, sorry for the confusion. It was the second to last line, to be exact.

There is a difference between saying:

‘This is sin, but…’ (you wrote “Any valid excuse that a person has for committing serious sin”)

Vs.

‘This is not sin if…’(front end with dispensation) or ‘since…’ (evaluation of the circumstance)

The key is this -

There is no valid reason for committing a serious sin.

Maybe that helps with seeing the distinction I meant to clarify.
 
Imagine going through your entire life – say, 100 years – by which every second of every day was filled with constant loneliness coupled with constant psychological frustration and the worst of physical pain. Imagine the worst suffering you’ve experienced, but imagine that never evending: every minute of every day of your life. I imagine a recently severe migraine, for example, which was entirely unbearable (but for only 2 days). I also think of when I felt entirely alone, when all my friends seemed distant. But I imagine having this feeling every day and every moment of my life.

It does not seem like a good life at all.

Now imagine that for all of eternity. Unending pain. It is hard enough to think God would allow someone’s entire life on Earth to be full of the worst of suffering every moment of every day. But hell is more than this: x10, x10000, times one hundred billion… endless, everlasting. How is this a mercy from God? How does this make any sense? How should a finite choice on earth control one’s eternity?
 
The reason why hell is eternal, as opposed to Purgatory which is temporal, is because the obstinacy of the damned is continual. So unlike in Purgatory, in which people suffer lose as a result of past sins, people in hell suffer as a result of ongoing sins. Those in hell, as a result of their fixed will against God and everything good that comes from him, continue to actively hate him and blaspheme him, along with committing violence against one another (and would commit against those in Heaven if they were able). They do not care or love Christ, or his angels or saints, or those on Earth, or the poor, or the vulnerable. They want all of them to be in misery with them. God does not punish temporal sin with eternal punishment, however he does punish eternal sin with eternal punishment. The punishment is proportional to the evil and never an ounce more.

Souls in hell do endure active chastisement, but the primary source of their suffering (or greatest source) is the pain of deprivation. In some private revelation, this pain is nonetheless not as great as it would be if they were forced to be in the direct presence of God. Therefore, to be banished to the place of hell is an act of mercy, since their torment is lessened. Holy things and people cause severe repugnance to those who are reprobate.

To be fixated against God, who desires nothing but our joy, is the most terrible and wicked thing in reality, so your difficulty in grasping hell is completely warranted. In fact, it is not something we are meant to grasp, since it is an eternal thing, and we cannot grasp eternity.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Imagine going through your entire life – say, 100 years – by which every second of every day was filled with constant loneliness coupled with constant psychological frustration and the worst of physical pain. Imagine the worst suffering you’ve experienced, but imagine that never evending: every minute of every day of your life. I imagine a recently severe migraine, for example, which was entirely unbearable (but for only 2 days). I also think of when I felt entirely alone, when all my friends seemed distant. But I imagine having this feeling every day and every moment of my life.

It does not seem like a good life at all.

Now imagine that for all of eternity. Unending pain. It is hard enough to think God would allow someone’s entire life on Earth to be full of the worst of suffering every moment of every day. But hell is more than this: x10, x10000, times one hundred billion… endless, everlasting. How is this a mercy from God? How does this make any sense? How should a finite choice on earth control one’s eternity?
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Free will self-exclusion. God does not oppose the free will choice. I am guessing that your real objection is why do we not have a second chance later after death? I believe the answer is that the person that chooses self-exclusion would not change their mind after death.
 
A damned person doesn’t want to suffer, but they are never willing to give up their wickedness in order to end their punishment. They want to be able to go back to doing whatever they feel like, including following their disordered passions along with omitting any vocation to doing good (“Whatever you did for them, you did for me, whatever you didn’t do for them, you didn’t do for me”). Demons are given permission to be active in the world, and yet they choose to project their wills on mankind in wicked ways.

At some point, your exercise of free will become fixated in a certain direction. You can actually even see this logic at work in our brief lives here on Earth. The older a person gets, the less malleable they become in changing themselves. They’ve internally ruminated & reflected on their place in the world and have built habits (either virtues or vices) that conform to their interior dispositions. In our youth, when we are more ignorant, and our knowledge & maturity is still rapidly developing, we can spring in any which direction. So as our experience & knowledge expands, our will becomes more fixated. In death, when complete revelation is given to us, this means either irreversible depravity or to become impassable (incapable of sin).

So there is a polarity between ‘being sorry’ and ‘being sorry that you were caught’. Even if God were to reveal himself as a great big person in the sky, it wouldn’t do any good whatsoever in terms of drawing contrition out of a person.
 
well that’s a first, hit the post button before writing anything. Sorry, please delete this post, if seen by a mod.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Imagine going through your entire life – say, 100 years – by which every second of every day was filled with constant loneliness coupled with constant psychological frustration and the worst of physical pain. Imagine the worst suffering you’ve experienced, but imagine that never evending: every minute of every day of your life. I imagine a recently severe migraine, for example, which was entirely unbearable (but for only 2 days). I also think of when I felt entirely alone, when all my friends seemed distant. But I imagine having this feeling every day and every moment of my life.

It does not seem like a good life at all.

Now imagine that for all of eternity. Unending pain. It is hard enough to think God would allow someone’s entire life on Earth to be full of the worst of suffering every moment of every day. But hell is more than this: x10, x10000, times one hundred billion… endless, everlasting. How is this a mercy from God? How does this make any sense? How should a finite choice on earth control one’s eternity?
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You are forgetting that we choose, not God, that’s the whole point of free will. God judges us because He is the only perfect one, He is the only one worthy enough to be the judge. However, it is our choice if we want to be seperated from God or to be with Him. If we want to love Him or hate Him.

Try this link, even if you don’t believe in the mystics or in the possibility of this, maybe it will help explain it a little better.

americaneedsfatima.org/The-Last-Things/a-letter-from-beyond.html
 
Vico said:
Free will self-exclusion. God does not oppose the free will choice. I am guessing that your real objection is why do we not have a second chance later after death? I believe the answer is that the person that chooses self-exclusion would not change their mind after death.
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Not sure what “after death” is, precisely. But as to a “second chance”, there is “final penitence”.
 
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