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Gabrielle_S
Guest
I heard of a bible passage in the old testament where God punished David and his descendants for the sins of David. It doesn’t seem very fair for a good God to punish his descendants too. Can you explain this.
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puzzleannie
Guest
Gabrielle S:
when initiating a discussion of a scripture verse, provide the chapter and verse, and the translation you are using. (look at madaglan’s post on Romans 11 for how to do this, very good example)
when discussing a posting on another website, give the link, do not quote from the article
when discussing claims by various non-Catholic apologists attacking a specific Catholic doctrine, quote that person and make him cite the Catholic document, chapter and verse, he is attacking. “I heard” and “a preacher on the radio said” give is nothing substantial to discuss.
basic rule for the forums (please read all posties):I heard of a bible passage in the old testament where God punished David and his descendants for the sins of David. It doesn’t seem very fair for a good God to punish his descendants too. Can you explain this.
when initiating a discussion of a scripture verse, provide the chapter and verse, and the translation you are using. (look at madaglan’s post on Romans 11 for how to do this, very good example)
when discussing a posting on another website, give the link, do not quote from the article
when discussing claims by various non-Catholic apologists attacking a specific Catholic doctrine, quote that person and make him cite the Catholic document, chapter and verse, he is attacking. “I heard” and “a preacher on the radio said” give is nothing substantial to discuss.
A
abcdefg
Guest
a friend of my friend heard a preacher on the radios said…
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Gabrielle_S
Guest
I read in Samuel 12 of the Good News Bible how God punished the descendants of David for sins that David commited. I find this very difficult to accept. How can the innocent pay for the sins of another? I fear that my physical lack of health could be a punishment for the sins of my parents. Can this be so? Then when Jesus told his disciples that the blind man was blind not because of his sins or his parents sins, did this statement replace the old testament thinking? Could you please clarify. Thank you and God bless you.
Gabrielle
Gabrielle
V
Verbum
Guest
Hi Gabrielle,
In 2 Samuel 12, the story is told of how David sent a man to die in combat so that he could have his wife and how God punished him through the death of the child.
We have our whole life to be pleasant to God and then die in his grace. If we do not, THEN he punishes us.
“Punishments” that happen in this life should be understood as “corrections” that God uses to keep us on the right path. And, in this case, we see in fact that David has now turned back to God and is blessed with a second son, Solomon, who will become a great king.
The child who died was not “punished”. He now enjoys the life that God reserves for innocents who have died.
God always does thing for a good purpose. We do not always understand that purpose, but we can be sure it’s there. He will one day reward us for accepting his will.
Verbum
In 2 Samuel 12, the story is told of how David sent a man to die in combat so that he could have his wife and how God punished him through the death of the child.
We have our whole life to be pleasant to God and then die in his grace. If we do not, THEN he punishes us.
“Punishments” that happen in this life should be understood as “corrections” that God uses to keep us on the right path. And, in this case, we see in fact that David has now turned back to God and is blessed with a second son, Solomon, who will become a great king.
The child who died was not “punished”. He now enjoys the life that God reserves for innocents who have died.
God always does thing for a good purpose. We do not always understand that purpose, but we can be sure it’s there. He will one day reward us for accepting his will.
Verbum
G
Gabrielle_S
Guest
Thank you for your reply but I am still very confused about physical suffering and sickness and unaswered prayers. Where do us Catholics get the notion that our physical illnessess are a cross that we should accept with joy and that it will bring us to salvation, when Jesus healed all who came to him and never said to anyone, “Sorry I can’t heal you, that illness will bring you closer to God and it is good for you” Although I do agree that a serious illness will do that, it seems to me that sometimes we have a tendency to concentrate on certain parts of the gospel and ignore others. For example, all priests will tell you that absolutely without a doubt Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, I really wish I could believe that, I want to but I feel that if that were so then a lot more of us who ask for healing and are in a state of grace would experience healing the same way Jesus healed when he walked the earth.
Why don’t priests talk much about the promises that Jesus made such as “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you”? Yet there are so many who ask and don’t receive healing. How can we have faith in one part of the gospel and overlook other promises?
Thank you and God Bless you.
Gabrielle
Why don’t priests talk much about the promises that Jesus made such as “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you”? Yet there are so many who ask and don’t receive healing. How can we have faith in one part of the gospel and overlook other promises?
Thank you and God Bless you.
Gabrielle
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Gabrielle,
I hear you. Sometimes one wonders where is the faith? People say “expect a miracle” but then have a ready story just in case it doesn’t come through. When all else fails, use the old standby, “it was not God’s will.”
My daughter asked a question this morning. If we are punished on earth for what we did wrong (such as detentions in school) then does that mean we don’t have to spend time in purgatory for them?
I told her I didn’t know exactly, but that it’s an excellent question. If we get praise on earth for our good deeds, then we have had our reward and don’t get any in heaven. (That’s why I think “recognition” programs at work are spiritually bankrupt – puts people on pedestal above others for “good work.”) Why should it be any different with punishment?
Alan
I hear you. Sometimes one wonders where is the faith? People say “expect a miracle” but then have a ready story just in case it doesn’t come through. When all else fails, use the old standby, “it was not God’s will.”
My daughter asked a question this morning. If we are punished on earth for what we did wrong (such as detentions in school) then does that mean we don’t have to spend time in purgatory for them?
I told her I didn’t know exactly, but that it’s an excellent question. If we get praise on earth for our good deeds, then we have had our reward and don’t get any in heaven. (That’s why I think “recognition” programs at work are spiritually bankrupt – puts people on pedestal above others for “good work.”) Why should it be any different with punishment?
Alan
P
psalm90
Guest
Gabrielle S:
Perhaps a starting point on suffering is to look at the consequences of sin, as explained in the Book of Genesis in the Bible. You can wonder about things all day, such as why God didn’t put a big fence around that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then, after Adam and Eve sinned, God unloads all these curses about working by the sweat of Adam’s brow and Eve and all women bearing children in pain, etc. Specifically, read the first four chapters of Genesis.
Now, if pain and suffering is a mystery, then this book and this explanation attributed by the Jews and others to Moses tells us that, yes, a lot of the burdens of life are the result of sin, and specifically the sin of Adam and Eve, to begin with.
You cannot ignore that sin does have that quality of having consequences for generations. I know that my grandfather was an alcoholic, and that set up a dysfunctional situation in the family that has lasted visibly for over 80 years. And, this is a type of sin that is pretty easy to see.
In the family of someone nearby, a lady tells about her family homestead which was occupied by one or another member of the family for over 100 years. She says though, she was told never to try to dig too deeply to see where the money came from to buy that land and build that grand house (a good sized rural farmhouse).
Or, take a look at the vestiges of black slavery in the United States or the situation of Native Americans. How can we possibly undo all the wrongs that have been done to those people?
Before you ask why God did such and such, just look at how sin “sticks” to us (as scripture says someplace).
I was almost morbidly struck by the realization when I was 7 that I was going to die eventually. That was very painful to think about and I had to cure myself of thinking about it.
On a different tangent, I think God punishes for several generations because we are so influenced by our ancestors and we have to be broken of our tendency to imitate them.
This is a very deep and mysterious subject. When I was writhing with the pain of a kidney stone, I wasn’t even thinking about God. I wasn’t even thinking about offering up my suffering. I was ashamed afterwards to realize that I didn’t even think of praying. I was actually slightly shocky from the intensity of the pain, which also produced a slight amnesia of the pain. I don’t know why. I don’t know, “why me?” I have learned to think more wisely, and I say, “why not me?” I pray every time I hear a siren from an emergency vehicle in town. Don’t bother asking me, “WHY?” I’m too busy praying for whoever needs my prayer at that moment.
You have unloaded a real bag of questions. You ought to try to focus on a central issue.Thank you for your reply but I am still very confused about physical suffering and sickness and unaswered prayers. Where do us Catholics get the notion that our physical illnessess are a cross that we should accept with joy and that it will bring us to salvation, when Jesus healed all who came to him and never said to anyone, “Sorry I can’t heal you, that illness will bring you closer to God and it is good for you” Although I do agree that a serious illness will do that, it seems to me that sometimes we have a tendency to concentrate on certain parts of the gospel and ignore others. For example, all priests will tell you that absolutely without a doubt Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, I really wish I could believe that, I want to but I feel that if that were so then a lot more of us who ask for healing and are in a state of grace would experience healing the same way Jesus healed when he walked the earth.
Why don’t priests talk much about the promises that Jesus made such as “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you”? Yet there are so many who ask and don’t receive healing. How can we have faith in one part of the gospel and overlook other promises?
Thank you and God Bless you.
Gabrielle
Perhaps a starting point on suffering is to look at the consequences of sin, as explained in the Book of Genesis in the Bible. You can wonder about things all day, such as why God didn’t put a big fence around that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then, after Adam and Eve sinned, God unloads all these curses about working by the sweat of Adam’s brow and Eve and all women bearing children in pain, etc. Specifically, read the first four chapters of Genesis.
Now, if pain and suffering is a mystery, then this book and this explanation attributed by the Jews and others to Moses tells us that, yes, a lot of the burdens of life are the result of sin, and specifically the sin of Adam and Eve, to begin with.
You cannot ignore that sin does have that quality of having consequences for generations. I know that my grandfather was an alcoholic, and that set up a dysfunctional situation in the family that has lasted visibly for over 80 years. And, this is a type of sin that is pretty easy to see.
In the family of someone nearby, a lady tells about her family homestead which was occupied by one or another member of the family for over 100 years. She says though, she was told never to try to dig too deeply to see where the money came from to buy that land and build that grand house (a good sized rural farmhouse).
Or, take a look at the vestiges of black slavery in the United States or the situation of Native Americans. How can we possibly undo all the wrongs that have been done to those people?
Before you ask why God did such and such, just look at how sin “sticks” to us (as scripture says someplace).
I was almost morbidly struck by the realization when I was 7 that I was going to die eventually. That was very painful to think about and I had to cure myself of thinking about it.
On a different tangent, I think God punishes for several generations because we are so influenced by our ancestors and we have to be broken of our tendency to imitate them.
This is a very deep and mysterious subject. When I was writhing with the pain of a kidney stone, I wasn’t even thinking about God. I wasn’t even thinking about offering up my suffering. I was ashamed afterwards to realize that I didn’t even think of praying. I was actually slightly shocky from the intensity of the pain, which also produced a slight amnesia of the pain. I don’t know why. I don’t know, “why me?” I have learned to think more wisely, and I say, “why not me?” I pray every time I hear a siren from an emergency vehicle in town. Don’t bother asking me, “WHY?” I’m too busy praying for whoever needs my prayer at that moment.
O
otm
Guest
It is perhaps a bit simplistic to say that God punishes the children for the sins of the father, as the immediate image is one of a cold, hateful, vengeful God. God is also a God of mercy; were He not, He would not hgave sent His Son to redeem us.
I am not suggesting that God has nothing to do with the suffering of the children, but that it is not direct, but rather indirect.
God created us, and in doing so, he created us with a psychology, and with certain “laws” such as action causing a reaction.
Take, for example, physical and/or sexual child abuse by a parent. When this is done to a child, harm occurs; children are not designed to be abused, and when they are, they react. that reaction in part is that their personhood, their identity is damaged. They struggle with self image, often reacting that they “caused” the parent to hurt them. They feel unworthy of affection, because they were taught by the parent that they are unworthy. As adults, they carry that burden, and their actions are shaped by, in part, who they see themselves as.
The result is that abuse has a tendency to perpetuate itself in the family tree; the abused often turns into an abuser, and repeats the cycle.
Why doesn’t God stop this? Because God gave us free will, and we are required to use it. When we fail to use it, or use it wrongly, we cause harm and that harm is not isolated; it is like throwing a rock into a pond, and the waves go out further and further, and hit more and more.
Good also doe the same; it spreads out. But too often we only look at the bad.
I am not suggesting that God has nothing to do with the suffering of the children, but that it is not direct, but rather indirect.
God created us, and in doing so, he created us with a psychology, and with certain “laws” such as action causing a reaction.
Take, for example, physical and/or sexual child abuse by a parent. When this is done to a child, harm occurs; children are not designed to be abused, and when they are, they react. that reaction in part is that their personhood, their identity is damaged. They struggle with self image, often reacting that they “caused” the parent to hurt them. They feel unworthy of affection, because they were taught by the parent that they are unworthy. As adults, they carry that burden, and their actions are shaped by, in part, who they see themselves as.
The result is that abuse has a tendency to perpetuate itself in the family tree; the abused often turns into an abuser, and repeats the cycle.
Why doesn’t God stop this? Because God gave us free will, and we are required to use it. When we fail to use it, or use it wrongly, we cause harm and that harm is not isolated; it is like throwing a rock into a pond, and the waves go out further and further, and hit more and more.
Good also doe the same; it spreads out. But too often we only look at the bad.
I
Ignatius
Guest
I think He protects us in this life. Can you imagine what a mess we would make of our lives without His Grace?
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