Does God want something from us?

[Detales]

Yes, I understand that the experience, ineffable and undefinable, is beyond sharing except to aver that one had it, and hope that it might be a pointer. I can understand that eventually you found support in the Catholic faith. Especially if you are talking about Aquinas ans Avila. For my part, both the experience and, more particularly, the supportive experiences came from such a wide range of contemporary proponents, with a backlog into history beyond the time of Jesus, of details far clearer to me than what the Church offers, I could not and cannot go back.

I cannot confine either my understandings or especially my experiences to a theology. God is not Catholic in the religious sense, and that Church, though it may appear to refer to an infinite God, is in fact, and by all my assessments, materialistic. While Church, Synagogs and Mosques are about God as a thought and sense, God is not a thought and makes no sense in mortal terms.

The august persons you mentioned, who in my opinion are Greats, I feel accomplished what they did as much by their particular faith as some others have by theirs. In other words, it does not matter so much what ladder Aquinas used to Awaken, as he displayed his use for it post awakening by even wanting to burn his works. Why would he do that? I find it a fascinating question. Similar occurrences have happened with other teachers in other traditions. My own Mentor several times insisted that his lectures be destroyed. It only points to that actual teaching is immediate, pertinent to the moment, appropriate to the student, and by transmission or direct realization. Faith and sutras or verses, and traditions are about the last thing that make a difference other than as a devotional round. But they are good for those for whom that is sufficient.

I, for my part, do not wish to deal with the opacity of the common teaching of the Church, whatever diamonds are in the coal. This is despite the cost of giving up society in that respect, not to mention the cost I paid for my honesty with myself. But I have seen teachings that offer the cut and polished facets that can flash such light that the object disappears in the brilliance. I’m sure it was like that around Jesus, if He actually ever walked, and, if one had ears and eyes to see and hear. But I have found even that Extraordinary Example elucidated far more clearly by such as my Mentor and his contemporaries. For that reason, I cannot put myself back in the position I outgrew in that instant.

I am happy that religions functions as well as they do for so many. That is well and good. I have no argument with such, only to point out that there is yet more than faith. Since there are such disareements between faiths, and none betwixt all those who have Realized and been Examplars of the Perennial Philosophy, it leads me to feel that there must be a way from belief. That is all.

 

[Katholish]

God is certainly the First Cause but He does not will the occurrence of every single event. As David Hume pointed out, God does not control the universe by direct volitions but for the most part uses the laws of nature to attain His ends. Calvin believed that every drop of rain occurs by the express command of God - which is clearly absurd because it would make Him the direct agent of all the natural evils in the world!

Actually, God does will the occurance of every single event. Furthermore, I can’t beleive that someone is actually citing David Hume as an authority on the divine nature. You do realize that Hume was one of the greatest enemies of Christian philosophy in the modern period? (Then again, whom among the modern philosophers wasn’t?) My authority, just to be clear, is Aquinas.

God is the primary cause of the physical evils of the world. This is not an absurd conclusion, but a necessary one. God does not will these evils for their own sake, but for the sake of some greater good which results from them. For example, God wills the death of the zebra so that the lion maybe nourished. To deny that God wills physical evil logically destroys the attributes we affirm of God, and if you are honestly arguing that position, I can try to point out why that is.

God is the primary efficient cause of all human actions and all natural occurances within creation. Humans are nevertheless true secondary causes of their actions, in in regards to sin, while God might be the cause of the movement of the will, He is not necessarily the cause of the determination of the will, which allows for man’s sole responsibility for sin.

 

[tonyrey]

Actually, God does will the occurrence of every single event.

In that case God is **directly **responsible for every single deformity and disaster.

Furthermore, I can’t believe that someone is actually citing David Hume as an authority on the divine nature. You do realize that Hume was one of the greatest enemies of Christian philosophy in the modern period?

I happen to have written a Ph.D. thesis in which I frequently quoted Hume in order to refute his arguments.

God is the primary cause of the physical evils of the world.

The ultimate Cause but not the **direct **cause.

This is not an absurd conclusion, but a necessary one. God does not will these evils for their own sake, but for the sake of some greater good which results from them.

Do you really believe God directly wills suffering caused by diseases like cancer? What greater good will result from that?

For example, God wills the death of the zebra so that the lion may be nourished. To deny that God wills physical evil logically destroys the attributes we affirm of God, and if you are honestly arguing that position, I can try to point out why that is.

To affirm that God directly wills physical evil logically destroys His attributes of infinite goodness and love.

God is the primary efficient cause of all human actions and all natural occurrences within creation.

How can God be the primary efficient cause of all natural occurrences when He works through the laws of nature? It would not make sense to believe in miracles if every event is a miracle!

 

[Katholish]

In that case God is directly responsible for every single deformity and disaster.

As being the primary cause, yes.

The ultimate Cause but not the direct cause.

By ultimate I fear that you are trying to distance God too much from His creation. Saying that God is the ultimate but not the direct cause sounds like the watch-maker God of Deism. I don’t think you are arguing for that conclusion, but I don’t see how you are avoiding it.

Do you really believe God directly wills suffering caused by diseases like cancer? What greater good will result from that?

Yes. This willing is done within the context of the natural laws, however, and I am not suggesting that God violates those laws to inflict more suffering than would otherwise occur (even though that might happen in certain circumstances). In the Catholic tradition, suffering is always embraced as an occasion for sanctity. I cite the entire Catholic tradition in this regard and specifically the lives of the saints most of whom underwent terrible suffering (many form illnesses and mortifications as opposed to simply tortures before martyrdom).

To affirm that God directly wills physical evil logically destroys His attributes of infinite goodness and love.

In this case, we need to clarify what you mean by directly. As I have said a couple times before, God does not will physical evil antecedently. If this is what you mean by directly, then I think we have some level of agreement. However, God does will the physical evil as St. Thomas explains in the Prima Pars, Q19, A9:

The evil of natural defect, or of punishment, He does will, by willing the good to which such evils are attached. Thus in willing justice He wills punishment; and in willing the preservation of the natural order, He wills some things to be naturally corrupted.

Thus, God wills this evil consequently for the sake of some greater good as I expressed before.

Just because it is willed consequently, however, does not imply that it is not caused directly.

 

[Zundrah]

Thus, God wills this evil consequently for the sake of some greater good as I expressed before.

Just because it is willed consequently, however, does not imply that it is not caused directly.

…and I might add that God does not give out deformities and birth defects or desaeses because people deserve them, but he dishes them out and people just deal with them. It forms us but unfortunately we can be bitter about our own misfortune and hate him for it. Your eventual (after death) direction is about how you deal with stuff right now.

 

[fhansen]

I am happy that religions functions as well as they do for so many. That is well and good. I have no argument with such, only to point out that there is yet more than faith. Since there are such disareements between faiths, and none betwixt all those who have Realized and been Examplars of the Perennial Philosophy, it leads me to feel that there must be a way from belief. That is all.

I don’t argue with experience because I know that ultimately the matter we’re speaking of must be an experience or else it would be worthless-it simply wouldn’t be real. OTOH, others’ experiences are difficult to assess and people are rightly suspicious of them, but we should all at least be open to the possibility.

In our case we might both suspect that the others’ beliefs may’ve colored the “event” somewhat-or maybe our understanding of it anyway- but, without getting into private revelation details, my primary “showing”, if you will (there were more than one experiences given during a fairly compressed time period), while quite general in some respects, did reveal several attributes, one of which came as a distinct knowledge that I was in the presence of an “Other”, albeit infinitely superior and yet somehow, strangely, totally familiar-the ultimate feeling of being home. Another aspect was being in the presence of-to be enrapt in, actually- an unfathomably vast and powerful and unconditional love-complete acceptance and complete peace.

These and other reasons contributed to why some tenets of the Catholic faith, including Gods’ personhood, are in agreement with what I “saw”.

 

[Detales]

Fhansen, thanks for sharing that. There is a much larger proportion of the population who has this sort of experience than we are ordinarily aware of. It is an area of experience that has fascinated me for most of my 62 years.

I have, for my part, come to see that there are two major factors in such an experience as we have similarly had. One is the undeniable and ineffable happening itself. The other is the discursive integration of that event into the “every day” aspect of our accounting for our being. There is a third, but far rarer one, I think, that is reserved, as far as I can see, to a precious few, and that is the permanent incorporation of that State as the consciously aware condition of everyday living. Franklin Merrell-Wollf writes very informatively and experientially on this matter in his second work, The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object. For such as he, and some others, who again are not nearly as rare as the Church proposes, there is the experience of permanently being immersed in both quales of experience, ie, the relative and the Absolute, or the subject/object and Unitary. This is very rare, though I have actually met one such, and seen/read others.

What is so remarkably amazing to me is that though in these cases, except two I know that were direct revelations, there was some intellectual knowledge of what we might call the Perennial Philosophy. But upon awakening, the reportage from these individuals was markedly consistent with such reports of both studied and independent Awakenings throughout history, those being independent of culture, time, place, and any other factor we might name.

It is this consistency, independent of scripture, religion, philosophy, or even agnosticism and atheism in some cases, that convinces me that some who have our sort of experience are either incomplete in their discursive assessment, or are unduly influenced, as we all are, by our mental predilections. It takes, after all, a special sort of vocabulary based on a non-temporal, non-sensual foundation, to even speak about the experience as a pointer. This is true of both Eastern and Western revalators, and especially so when one considers the essential inability of English to incorporate certain referents of experience in its grammar.

In my own case, I was, despite indications immediately to the contrary, thought to be quite mad by some friends. On the other hand, one of those who later had a similar occurrence in his life, revealed it to me and we had a most wonderful conversation based on that commonalities of such and experience.

But in any case, my sense is that the full implications of such an Insight are not seen or lost in time if not grounded in a grammar consistent with the fullest implications of this extraordinary gift. It may even be passed off, in weaker instances, as being a simple mood or psychic state. Many clerics actually tried to convince me that I had had some sort of chemical or hormonal imbalance experience. Though I did factor that in, the similarity of my vision to that propounded by contemporaries and ancients of the non-dual Way, were just too strongly similar both in premise and in result to dismiss.

Sadly, such a mental or discursive apprehension of my new state did not fit in with the common practices and dogmas of Mother Church, though I made a sincere effort to “go there” with it. Eventually, both on experiential and historic grounds, I had to excuse myself from the congregation, despite, to me, clear evidence that not only were the Truths of the Philosophy hidden and obscured in the Church teaching, but that Jesus Himself taught exactly the same thing, based on His own words, particularly His Identity statements.

That discovery saddened me, as I had perforce to choose to go with what I perceive as a greater and clearer explication of such matters in the communities where our experience is not an ancillary event to be explained by faith, but is the foundational Premise and practice of daily life every moment as a Living Reality.