Does Jesus Have Something the Father Doesn't?

[moondweller]

Yeah, a mother.

But not the “Son.”

 

[Christian55]

Thread: Understanding Mormon Doctrine
Thread Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…octrine&page=3

Finrock’s Post #18
"Joseph never taught that Adam is God. The Church of Jesus Christ understands the Ancient of Days to be a title given to Adam. It doesn’t refer to Adam being our God. The Church understands that the “Ancient of Days” refered to in the Bible, is Adam. Perhaps when you read the scripture in D&C 116 that you referenced earlier, you missed the part explaining this. But, here is the scripture:

‘Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet’ (D&C 116:1)."

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS (LDS.org has this online-you can order the book or check your library.)

27:11 calls Adam “father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days”

138:11 calls Adam “the Ancient of Days and father of all”

**Definition of “Ancient of Days” in “The Original Catholic Encyclopedia,” which you can access from this website by clicking on the Tab entitled “Encyclopedia:”
**

•Published by Encyclopedia Press, 1913.
“Ancient of Days, a name given to God by the Prophet Daniel, vii, 9, 13, 22, in which he contrasts His eternal powers with the frail existence of the empires of the world. It is from these descriptions of the Almighty that Christian art derived its general manner of representing the first person of the Holy Trinity. Ancient of Days is expressed in Aramaic by `Atiq yomin; in the Greek Septuagint by palaios emeron; and in the Vulgate by Antiquus dierum.” A. J. MAAS (Your usage constitutes agreement with User License :: Permissions :: Copyright © 2009, Catholic Answers.)
In the Catholic Encyclopedia, “Ancient of Days," is defined as a name given to God by the Prophet Daniel, vii, 9, 13, 22, in which he contrasts His eternal powers with the frail existence of the empires of the world.

**
The LDS D&C calls “Adam” the “Ancient of Days,” in what is referred to as “Revelations given to Joseph Smith the Prophet.”

Could an LDS Forum Member explain this huge discrepancy regarding the identity of the “Ancient of Days?”

This is particularly important since the second Mormon Prophet, Brigham Young, claimed very clearly that he believed that Adam is God.

I do not think we can discuss the issues of this Thread, until we have a clear understanding of the identity of the god of Mormonism.

I respectfully ask Finrock, and/or other LDS Forum Members, to explain why you believe Adam is the Ancient of Days.**

[/QUOTE]

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Jimdandy! I hope you are well today.

I simply mean that God reveals Himself -talk with Him and He will enlighten you.
Read the Gospel of John and then listen for God’s response.

I would suggest that you visit a Catholic Church and sit quietly there in the Presence of God-even if you do not believe He is there.

.you are in my prayers +

Thank you for your post. For me, the question is settled insofar as who and what God is. However, I don’t doubt the sincerity of your sentiments and I do appreciate your concern for me.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Lisa44! Nice to meet you.

Yeah, a mother.

Yes, another interesting aspect to think about repsective to the Trinity!

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Christian55. I hope you’ve had a wonderful day thus far!

This is particularly important since the second Mormon Prophet, Brigham Young, claimed very clearly that he believed that Adam is God.

I do not think we can discuss the issues of this Thread, until we have a clear understanding of the identity of the god of Mormonism.

I respectfully ask Finrock, and/or other LDS Forum Members, to explain why you believe Adam is the Ancient of Days.

Please read the OP, particularly the underlined portion. I am asking for understanding of the Trinity in particular. I look forward to anything you can contribute that is relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Christian55]

Good afternoon Christian55. I hope you’ve had a wonderful day thus far!
Please read the OP, particularly the underlined portion. I am asking for understanding of the Trinity in particular. I look forward to anything you can contribute that is relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Is God not part of the Trinity?

I think we need to understand who the Mormon god is, before we can discuss God in terms of the Christian beliefs of the Trinity.

Forum Members, please refer to my Post #22, regarding Mormon claims that Adam is the “Ancient of Days,” and quotes from Finrock’s previous posts, confirming that belief.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening FCEGM and moondweller! I hope you both are doing well.

I know that I’ve only quoted one of you even though I am addressing both of you. I did this because I believe that both of you are essentially getting at the same thing. If you don’t think so, please let me know.

First, I just wanted to point out that I was unfamiliar with the term theopneustos and so I looked it up. So, what I understand is that this word means “inspired”. Particularly in a Catholic context, it means the inspired scriptures as interpreted by the Catholic church. Is this a correct understanding?

What you have here is the mystery of the Trinity and the mystery of the incarnation. “Mystery” in that they’re both divinely revealed via the theopneustos Scriptures, but neither can be fully understood by us.

The incarnation of the Son neither contradicts, distorts or adds to the infinite, divine attributes shared by all three Persons of the Godhead. The Son didn’t take on a divine body, but a fully human body with all its finite, human limitations. For instance, like any human body it can be in only one place at one time. Nor can it be at the same time in a humble state and a glorified state (something Catholics need to consider regarding their “Eucharist”).

Through the incarnation the Son became fully man. He was/is at the same time fully God and fully Man - not a blending of the two. His divinity, with all its infinite attributes, did not take on humanity, nor did His humanity take on divinity. The “goodness” of His humanity is derived from the fact that He was totally sinless, not that it was in any way divine. And the testimony of Scripture concerning the MAN Christ Jesus is that:2 Cor 5:21 "He made Him (the Man Christ Jesus) who knew no sin {to be} sin (on the cross) on our behalf, so that we (who have believed on Him) might become the righteousness of God in Him."For this reason the MAN Christ Jesus is the Redeemer of Adam’s fallen race. And the message delivered to this world by the Apostles is for men to believe in Him for salvation: forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to God and the free gifts of righteousness and eternal life in Him.

Now, what I understand from what you two have written is that according to the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus has two ontologically distinct natures. Further, these two natures do not interfered with or are they affected by each other. I’d like to confirm this understanding before I continue. So, did I understand this correctly?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Finrock]

Hello again Christian55!

Is God not part of the Trinity?

I think we need to understand who the Mormon god is, before we can discuss God in terms of the Christian beliefs of the Trinity.

Forum Members, please refer to my Post #22, regarding Mormon claims that Adam is the “Ancient of Days,” and quotes from Finrock’s previous posts, confirming that belief.

Although an interesting topic, what you are presenting is completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Christian55]

Hello again Christian55!
Although an interesting topic, what you are presenting is completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Kind Regards,
Finrock

**Actually, it has everything to do with the topic at hand. If the Mormon god is Adam, there is no point in discussing the relationship between Jesus and the Father.

This is a quote from the Second Mormon Prophet, Brighan Young, April 9, 1852, found in the Journal of Discourses of the General Authorities of the LDS Church, Volume 1 (For Forum Members who do not have access to the LDS Journal of Discourses, it is online at journalofdiscourses.org/volume-01/):
**

Journal of Discourses Volume 1:50-51, Brighan Young, April 9, 1852
"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.

Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal.

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession.

I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone.

I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming “great is the mystery of godliness,” and tell nothing.

**It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
**
Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, “it is an immaterial substance!”

What a learned idea! **Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. **Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.

I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.

I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea–“if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.”

Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing."

If the Mormon god is Adam, how can we have a dialogue about Jesus and the Father. It seems rather pointless.

 

[moondweller]

Good evening FCEGM and moondweller! I hope you both are doing well. First, I just wanted to point out that I was unfamiliar with the term theopneustos and so I looked it up. So, what I understand is that this word means “inspired”. Particularly in a Catholic context, it means the inspired scriptures as interpreted by the Catholic church. Is this a correct understanding?

Theopneustos, translated in English, “inspired,” but transliterated means “God-breathed.” It has to do with the divine origin of the Scriptures, not their interpretation - Catholic or otherwise.

Now, what I understand from what you two have written is that according to the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus has two ontologically distinct natures. Further, these two natures do not interfered with or are they affected by each other. I’d like to confirm this understanding before I continue. So, did I understand this correctly?

I can’t speak for FCEGM, but if you understand what I said to mean that the humanity of Jesus Christ is not divine and His divinity is not human, then yes.

When born (incarnated) into this world through the virgin birth the Son lived and functioned in obedience to the Father as a Man. As a Man He died on the cross, a substitutionary sin-sacrifice, for man’s redemption. When He subsequently rose from the dead He rose bodily, and now a glorified Man sits at the right hand of the Father (figuratively for the seat of power) functioning there as the believer’s (the redeemed through faith) High Priestly Intercessor and Advocate. Through one man (Adam), all mankind fell. Through one Man (Jesus Christ), mankind is redeemed - through faith in Him alone.

 

[Selene]

Greetings everyone!

I’m interested in receiving a response from Catholics and Protestants alike. Essentially, my question is this:

Jesus Christ has a resurrected and glorified physical body. Heavenly Father does not. Therefore, Jesus Christ has something that the Father does not have.

How do you reconcile this with traditional Trinitarianism?

To explain a bit of my purpose. I’m a member of the LDS church. I do not believe in the traditional concept of the Trinity. I believe I have a fairly good understanding of it, however. But, I also know that my understanding is likely very limited relative to a practicing Catholic or Protestant to whom the Trinity is doctrine and truth. So, based on my limited knowledge, I have been unable to reconcile the Trinity with the idea that Jesus has a resurrected physical body and God the Father does not. I am curious to know how others approach this topic. I am not intending to refute the teaching of the Trinity or defend any other concept of God. Therefore, my reponses here will be largely limited to getting further clarification and so forth. I, personally, am not interested in debating how God should be understood. I simply want to understand a perspective that I currently do not. I thank you in advance for any responses.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Hello Finrock,

It has always been very difficult to understand the Holy Trinity. We believe that God is three persons in one. Father, Son, and Holy Spririt are exactly alike and yet they are also distinct from each other. The best way I can understand the Holy Trinity is to take the example of “water.”

Water can exist in three forms - liquid water, ice, and water vapor. Regardless of what form it is, liquid water, ice, and water vapor all have the exact same composition. They all consist of 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 atom of oxygen. All three forms have same composition. However, they are distinctly different because one is liquid, one is solid ice, and the third is vapor. They are also distincly different in that they have different densities. Ice has a lighter density than liquid water, which explains the fact that ice floats on liquid water. Water vapor has an even lighter density. Therefore, water can exist in three different forms and have different densities and yet be exactly the same in composition because all three consist of 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 atom of oxygen. The Holy Trinity is pretty much the same concept. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same but also distinctly different. God has provided a substance in His creation to show that it is possible to have the exact same composition and yet be different.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[LilyM]

Yeah, a mother.

AND a Father for that matter!