Does predestination negate free will

[Robert_Sock]

I feel strongly that my life, and where I’m at today being Catholic and devout, was predestined, but I also feel that I do have free will to the degree I made choices in my life that hindered or promoted my ultimate destination.

Looking back on my life, I sense a spirit, a predestined spirit that guides everyone differently, that has always led me in the direction of who I am today, and continues to guide me to whom God has predestined me to be ultimately. Again, I’m free oppose or follow spirit, but the spirit will always nudge me to an ultimate life and an end that differs from that of the predestined spirit of others.

LOVE!

 

[Cathoholic]

Robert Sock asked:

QUOTE:
Does predestination negate free will?

No. They coexist. HOW the two coexist is a mystery.

The other important caveat here is making sure “predestination” does not get redefined into some sort of “double predestination” or a proverbial Divine puppet show.

Look at the verses (and for that matter the CCC paragraphs) that teach predestination and affirm them.

Then look at the verses (& CCC) that assert free will . . . . and affirm them too.

But again keep in mind that the coexistence of the two teachings are not contrary to reason, but they are above reason and ultimately in this life will thus remain a mystery (although the teachings can be probed for a deeper, yet incomplete understanding).

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert Sock asked:

QUOTE:
Does predestination negate free will?

No. They coexist. HOW the two coexist is a mystery.

The other important caveat here is making sure “predestination” does not get redefined into some sort of “double predestination” or a proverbial Divine puppet show.

Look at the verses (and for that matter the CCC paragraphs) that teach predestination and affirm them.

Then look at the verses (& CCC) that assert free will . . . . and affirm them too.

But again keep in mind that the coexistence of the two teachings are not contrary to reason, but they are above reason and ultimately in this life will thus remain a mystery (although the teachings can be probed for a deeper, yet incomplete understanding).

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

Yes, it did help. I can feel that they coexisted in my life. I feel fortunate and grateful!

LOVE!

 

[blase6]

If you mean by “predestination” that there is only one reality of all your life choices within time, that is not what is commonly understood by Catholics as “predestination”. The more usual definition of “predestination” is the belief that God wills some persons to go to Heaven and wills others to go to Hell.
The second definition is not a permitted belief in Catholicism. God wills all people to go to Heaven. I am not sure what that means specifically, but it would be wrong to think that God put you into an “Elect”.
I’m not so sure that the first definition is a good understanding of our salvation either. However, I think it comes from a sense that possibility is meaningless, so there is only what is, or is not, and not what may be.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If you mean by “predestination” that there is only one reality of all your life choices within time, that is not what is commonly understood by Catholics as “predestination”. The more usual definition of “predestination” is the belief that God wills some persons to go to Heaven and wills others to go to Hell.
The second definition is not a permitted belief in Catholicism. God wills all people to go to Heaven. I am not sure what that means specifically, but it would be wrong to think that God put you into an “Elect”.
I’m not so sure that the first definition is a good understanding of our salvation either. However, I think it comes from a sense that possibility is meaningless, so there is only what is, or is not, and not what may be.

I think of predestination as the spiritual “nudging” toward a particular state of bring. Our free will is simply our response to this nudging.

LOVE!

 

[blase6]

I think of predestination as the spiritual “nudging” toward a particular state of bring. Our free will is simply our response to this nudging.

LOVE!

Well yeah, God is always pushing us to choose the greater good. But that is a far stretch from the strict definition of predestination.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well yeah, God is always pushing us to choose the greater good. But that is a far stretch from the strict definition of predestination.

I believe that this nudging can be predominantly from God or Satan, with different goals in each. For example, one person may be called to become a saint through one path, while another is called to be a different type of a saint through a different path. The “nudging” for each is quite different. This, I think, can be seen through the life of Saint Peter versus St Paul, with each having been “predestined.”

LOVE!

 

[ready]

Predestination does not negate free will. God bless you.

 

[Gorgias]

Predestination means simply that God knows all things, not that He forces them to happen (or even that He ‘nudges’ them into happening). God is outside of time; so, the fact that He knows all that will happen in time is not surprising. It gets wonky when we, inside of time, try to wrap our heads around what it means for God to see what we cannot see; but that does not mean that He’s forcing our hand in any of our future decisions…

 

[Robert_Sock]

Predestination means simply that God knows all things, not that He forces them to happen (or even that He ‘nudges’ them into happening). God is outside of time; so, the fact that He knows all that will happen in time is not surprising. It gets wonky when we, inside of time, try to wrap our heads around what it means for God to see what we cannot see; but that does not mean that He’s forcing our hand in any of our future decisions…

But do you believe in a conscience? If so, what is its purpose and how does it work?

LOVE!

 

[Gorgias]

But do you believe in a conscience? If so, what is its purpose and how does it work?

Of course! It is the ‘place’ in our core as humans where we interact with God’s moral law. We know good and evil through our conscience, and, in the situations we face in our lives, if our conscience is properly formed, it is what tells us the moral character of the actions we ponder.

Our conscience, though, isn’t a place where God ‘forces’ or ‘nudges’ us toward the good. Each human being has a conscience, and in a personal way, utilizes it (or not) to orient his actions toward the good.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Of course! It is the ‘place’ in our core as humans where we interact with God’s moral law. We know good and evil through our conscience, and, in the situations we face in our lives, if our conscience is properly formed, it is what tells us the moral character of the actions we ponder.

Our conscience, though, isn’t a place where God ‘forces’ or ‘nudges’ us toward the good. Each human being has a conscience, and in a personal way, utilizes it (or not) to orient his actions toward the good.

I’m not sure of others, but my conscience has a long history of nudging me towards God and virtue. I would like to take the credit of my going from a staunch Atheist to a devout Catholic, but that simply did not happen from free will and random chances. The inner spiritual forces (both good and evil) have shaped me into who I am today…they nudge me in a preordained direction.

LOVE!

 

[Gorgias]

I’m not sure of others, but my conscience has a long history of nudging me towards God and virtue.

Of course it does! That’s because God’s law is written into our hearts, and if our conscience honestly listens, it hears God’s voice! (That doesn’t mean that God is taking the place of our conscience or free will and convincing us against our will to do the good!)

I would like to take the credit of my going from a staunch Atheist to a devout Catholic, but that simply did not happen from free will and random chances.

No, it didn’t. But, it didn’t happen in violation of your free will, either, which is what is implied if we say God ‘nudges’ us against our will.

(God provides us with the grace necessary to turn toward Him. But, when we do, it is our free will choice to do so.)

 

[Robert_Sock]

Of course it does! That’s because God’s law is written into our hearts, and if our conscience honestly listens, it hears God’s voice! (That doesn’t mean that God is taking the place of our conscience or free will and convincing us against our will to do the good!)

No, it didn’t. But, it didn’t happen in violation of your free will, either, which is what is implied if we say God ‘nudges’ us against our will.

(God provides us with the grace necessary to turn toward Him. But, when we do, it is our free will choice to do so.)

What exactly do these graces do if they do not nudge us (motivate us or reward us) in one direction or another.

LOVE!

 

[oldcelt]

To answer the OP…absolutely.