Does RCC teach "karma"?

[Sebastianos]

In relation to purgatory and indulgences, I have a feeling that RCC is teaching essentially the same thing as are fe. confucians and theravadin buddhists when they teach that they can free their ancestors from hell with their “merits” and make the bad karma nonexistent thus ensuring salvation…

Am I mistaken in my understanding?

 

[scriabin]

Since no impure thing can exist in Heaven, Catholics pray for the dead who still have temporal punishment due for venial sins.

No one from Hell can be saved.

Karma is a belief that reincarnated souls work out there ego spirituality to be one with god consciousness–“nirvana.” There is no Heaven or Hell.

The Church teaches that reincarnation is false, although I’m sure you could find individual ‘Catholics’ who belief otherwise.

 

[mchale]

No, I don’t think one could consider the Catholic teaching on indulgences and purgatory is really just a Catholic form of karma. The concept of karma deals with the idea that every good is balanced by a good and every evil is balanced by an evil. I.e., if I do a good deed, then I can expect a reward equal in good to the good I did and likewise with evil. While this makes a certain amount of sense, at least in the physical world (i.e. it stands to reason it I am nice to people, they will be nice to me), I think the Catholic Church and the real world both show this is not the case. In other words, I might do a charitable act, but there is no definitive reward I will receive because I am charitable, and if I do evil, I might just get away with it in this life. Karma is only possible in a world where life does not end with death. The thing is, karma demands that our reward or punishment after this life be in balance with the good or evil we did in this life. But Christianity doesn’t teach that. It teaches that our reward in heaven or punishment in hell will be infinite, and that our reward has less to do with the balance of good and evil we have done, than our recognition that we have done evil and our willingness to accept God’s forgiveness and healing for that evil.

–
Bill

 

[jmcrae]

In relation to purgatory and indulgences, I have a feeling that RCC is teaching essentially the same thing as are fe. confucians and theravadin buddhists when they teach that they can free their ancestors from hell with their “merits” and make the bad karma nonexistent thus ensuring salvation.

I am not sure what Buddism or Confucianism teaches, exactly, but I was under the impression that they had no concept of Hell.

I always thought that Karma was the idea that bad deeds in this incarnation will be punished in the next incarnation by coming back as a lesser being, and that good acts are rewarded by coming back as something better.

Am I mistaken in my understanding?

I think so …

Indulgences can be given to the souls in Purgatory to help them speed their journey to Heaven - but if we commit mortal sins and don’t repent of them, we will still go to Hell, no matter how many Indulgences we have acquired.

PS: I am speaking hypothetically, of course. In practice, the sort of person who commits mortal sins, and the sort of person who collects indulgences, are so completely different from each other - we can’t commit mortal sins by accident, and nor can we collect Indulgences by accident, so it would be rather unlikely for the same person to do both at the same time.

 

[Sebastianos]

I am not sure what Buddism or Confucianism teaches, exactly, but I was under the impression that they had no concept of Hell.

Quite many buddhist schools of thought do believe in heaven and hell. As does the more animistic ones. Both certainly believe in a possibility to alleviate the pain of their dead ancestors in various ways.

( And about karma, there are different ideas of that too, some think you get results in this life, some in hereafter, some in future lives, some all these and more…)

Thanks to all who tried to shed light on this.

 

[rossum]

In relation to purgatory and indulgences, I have a feeling that RCC is teaching essentially the same thing as are fe. confucians and theravadin buddhists when they teach that they can free their ancestors from hell with their “merits” and make the bad karma nonexistent thus ensuring salvation…

Am I mistaken in my understanding?

I am Buddhist, I cannot speak for Confucians. At its simplest karma is merely that actions have consequences:Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

(Dhammapada 1 vv 1-2)
In this broad sense most Christians have some sort of belief in karma: actions have consequences. I would except the more extreme forms of Calvinism where salvation is purely up to God and one’s own actions and beliefs have no influence.

The theology of reincarnation, the twenty-six (temporary) heavens and the sixteen (temporary) hells are obviously different between Budhism and Christianity.

The theological details of “transfer of merit” are disputed between different Buddhist schools, though the majority do allow it. Merit is not valuable in itself, only as a way to make enlightenment easier - it is difficult to be enlightened when you are reborn as an animal on in one of the hells.

rossum

 

[Ghosty]

In relation to purgatory and indulgences, I have a feeling that RCC is teaching essentially the same thing as are fe. confucians and theravadin buddhists when they teach that they can free their ancestors from hell with their “merits” and make the bad karma nonexistent thus ensuring salvation…

Am I mistaken in my understanding?

No, the Catholic teaching on purgatory is simply that those who are bound for Heaven benefit from the prayers of the still-living Faithful, even as they themselves are purified. It follows the same tradition that all Apostolic Churches practice of praying for the dead, and offering Divine Liturgies for them; Latins just have a more detailed explaination of why, and give it the name purgatory.

Indulgences are extraordinary penances that we can do for the dead as well. This is an expansion on alms-giving on behalf of the dead, which St. John Chrysostom taught:

Not in vain does he that stands by the altar cry out when the tremendous mysteries are celebrated, “For all that have fallen asleep in Christ, and for those who perform commemorations in their behalf.” For if there were no commemorations for them, these things would not have been spoken: since our service is not a mere stage show, God forbid! yea, it is by the ordinance of the Spirit that these things are done.
Let us then give them aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why do you doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them? since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others. And this Paul signified saying, “that in a manifold Person your gift towards us bestowed by many may be acknowledged with thanksgiving on your behalf.” (2 Cor. i. 11.) Let us not then be weary in giving aid to the departed, both by offering on their behalf and obtaining prayers for them: for the common Expiation of the world is even before us. Therefore with boldness do we then intreat for the whole world, and name their names with those of martyrs, of confessors, of priests. For in truth one body are we all, though some members are more glorious than others; and it is possible from every source to gather pardon for them, from our prayers, from our gifts in their behalf, from those whose names are named with theirs. Why therefore do you grieve? Why mourn, when it is in your power to gather so much pardon for the departed?

And St. Cyril of Jerusalem taught:

1. Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.
2. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him offence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.

Those are indulgences for those in Purgatory in action, and fall directly under the Latin definition of the terms.

God bless!

 

[Sebastianos]

Thanks Ghosty, Your quotes were most enlightening.

This page might interest you.

orthodoxinfo.com/searchresults.aspx?kw=purgatory
and
orthodoxinfo.com/death/critic.aspx

 

[Ghosty]

Thanks Ghosty, Your quotes were most enlightening.

This page might interest you.

orthodoxinfo.com/searchresults.aspx?kw=purgatory
and
orthodoxinfo.com/death/critic.aspx

In reading the first article of the first link, I can see that some semantic difficulties crept in to the debate. Latins would not say that sinners being purified are put into the eternal fire simply because they will not be there eternally, but temporarily. Hence it is called “temporal (temporary) punishment for sin”. Whether or not it’s the same “fire” is immaterial to the Latin argument, since places of the afterlife aren’t named as if they were distinguished physically in the manner that different places are here in this life.

Therefore Latin tradition seperates the Hell of eternal punishement from the Hell of purgatory, simply because one is a permanent state, and the other temporary. Beyond that distinction we know nothing in this life to indicate what the next life will entail for those with sins. If the Easterns want to say that lesser sinners are put in “eternal fire temporarily”, and that major sinners who are utterly damned are placed in “eternal fire permanently”, it is no difficulty for a Latin. In fact, if you read the Catechism of Trent you’ll find that purgatory is said to occur in Hell, so this language is not unknown in our tradition.

catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/ApostlesCreed05.shtml

Peace and God bless!

 

[AlegreFe]

I am Buddhist, I cannot speak for Confucians. At its simplest karma is merely that actions have consequences:Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

(Dhammapada 1 vv 1-2)

This sounds sort of like “the secret” that was recently on Oprah’s show.

rossum:

In this broad sense most Christians have some sort of belief in karma: actions have consequences. I would except the more extreme forms of Calvinism where salvation is purely up to God and one’s own actions and beliefs have no influence.

I don’t believe that “karma” is the same as anything that the Church teaches.

This is my take on “karma” - “Do good unto others so that good can come to you.”
I don’t believe that we are to do good to look for anything in return.
Last Sunday’s reading was a great teaching on this;Do to others as you would have them do to you.
For if you love those who love you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners love those who love them.
And if you do good to those who do good to you,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners do the same.
If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners lend to sinners,
and get back the same amount.
But rather, love your enemies and do good to them,
and lend expecting nothing back;
:bible1: Lk 6:31-35

 

[happygal]

I am not sure what Buddism or Confucianism teaches, exactly, but I was under the impression that they had no concept of Hell.

They have concept of hell and the concept of hell is even far more terrible/horrible then the Christian version of hell

I always thought that Karma was the idea that bad deeds in this incarnation will be punished in the next incarnation by coming back as a lesser being, and that good acts are rewarded by coming back as something better.

Yes you are almost correct. If you do good deeds in current life, you will have a good life during your next incarnation

I think so …

Indulgences can be given to the souls in Purgatory to help them speed their journey to Heaven - but if we commit mortal sins and don’t repent of them, we will still go to Hell, no matter how many Indulgences we have acquired.

PS: I am speaking hypothetically, of course. In practice, the sort of person who commits mortal sins, and the sort of person who collects indulgences, are so completely different from each other - we can’t commit mortal sins by accident, and nor can we collect Indulgences by accident, so it would be rather unlikely for the same person to do both at the same time.

 

[Sebastianos]

I feel that this issue is solved as I see no reason to believe RCC teaches “karma” in same way as hindus and buddhist do. Case is closed.

 

[cho_pilo]

Is karma is a theory of relativistic ethical subjectivism? Does it encourages morality?

 

[Church_Militant]

In relation to purgatory and indulgences, I have a feeling that RCC is teaching essentially the same thing as are fe. confucians and theravadin buddhists when they teach that they can free their ancestors from hell with their “merits” and make the bad karma nonexistent thus ensuring salvation…

Am I mistaken in my understanding?

Yeah… you’re wrong.

 

[cho_pilo]

I am Buddhist, I cannot speak for Confucians. At its simplest karma is merely that actions have consequences:Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

(Dhammapada 1 vv 1-2)
In this broad sense most Christians have some sort of belief in karma: actions have consequences. I would except the more extreme forms of Calvinism where salvation is purely up to God and one’s own actions and beliefs have no influence.

The theology of reincarnation, the twenty-six (temporary) heavens and the sixteen (temporary) hells are obviously different between Budhism and Christianity.

The theological details of “transfer of merit” are disputed between different Buddhist schools, though the majority do allow it. Merit is not valuable in itself, only as a way to make enlightenment easier - it is difficult to be enlightened when you are reborn as an animal on in one of the hells.

rossum

Leaving aside that the Dhammapada is often not considered a normative source in Buddhism -

What do you think is meant by “mind” in the above passage?
How do you think that the “mind” functions?

 

[puzzleannie]

In relation to purgatory and indulgences, I have a feeling that RCC is teaching essentially the same thing as are fe. confucians and theravadin buddhists when they teach that they can free their ancestors from hell with their “merits” and make the bad karma nonexistent thus ensuring salvation…

Am I mistaken in my understanding?

no,
either do confucians and buddhists. it is a Hindu concept to my understanding.
the Catholic Church teaches no one is freed from sin and its consequences by the merits of anyone except Jesus Christ, so all Christian prayer on behalf of the dead invokes those merits.