J
- Status
R
revert_jen
Guest
I’m really glad you’re facing these questions now. It means you really care about what the teachings of the Church are, and I hope you overcome your doubts, as I’m sure you would be a real blessing to the Church.
Please remember that this forum is on the internet. You can’t always trust what you read on the internet.
So take it all, including what I say myself, as something to pray over and ponder, rather than Gospel.I’m just laity, but I have read the Catechism and the Bible multiple times each. (yes, even the “begats.”
)The one overall thing that is definitely a fact is that the Church NEVER says that an individual is in Hell. Not even Judas. We may, as individual Catholics, have strong feelings about the final destination of, say, a Hitler or a Stalin, but we cannot ever know about an individual that they are in Hell. The Church says that there are souls in Hell, but not who. There have been times in history when the general assumption was that certain sins (like suicide) meant the person was in Hell. But they have never been declared to be there.
Because of this, and because a person does not consist solely of the last act they performed before death, it’s not possible to say with absolute certainty about any of the cases, because they aren’t real people. But all of the opinions I give below are, for me, beyond reasonable doubt except where stated otherwise.
No. I don’t see how that could possibly be grave matter. Not all sins are mortal sins.
I don’t think so. The idle click of a mouse, although in this case sinful, does not likely carry the “full consent of the will” required for mortal sin. I think it is very possible for viewng porn to be mortally sinful, but one idle instance, very likely not.
No. As others have mentioned, his will is compromised by grief.
Not if they make it clear to those around them that they are living chastely, and probably not even if they don’t. The only potential sin here is the sin of giving scandal (bringing other people to have premarital sex because it appears that this couple is doing so). I’m really not sure that in this society, there is enough scandal here to cause some weak person to engage in premarital sex when otherwise they would not. In any case, if they make it clear that they are living chastely, I would think even the possibility of scandal is eliminated.
This is a tricky one. There really just isn’t enough information. I personally would not schedule any optional activity so that I would miss Mass. But there might easily be some factor that would mitigate the sin. On the other hand, he may love golf more than God, which is pretty bad.
Again, not nearly enough information. Why is she afraid? Did she get married intending never to have children? Is there some temporary thing about her health that is frightening her? Was he just being weak-willed?
No. (well probably) It depends on whether this is just the “little white lie” variety or whether he is asking for her honest opinion, to be used in helping him decide whether to continue being an artist. Lying in the second case is still maybe not mortal, but if it were me, I’d want to go to confession before receiving the Eucharist, just in case. It’s a betrayal of trust, putting one’s own emotional laziness over the needs of another.
No. One song is not grave matter.
God is not trying to trap people. He’s not waiting for a saint to commit a mortal sin so he can send them to Hell. I trust God. I do everything I can to avoid anything like grave matter, go to confession if there is any doubt, and trust to God for the rest.
–Jen
J
Jeanne_S
Guest
Even if all the factors you listed were indeed mortal sins,how would leaving thevCatholic Church change anything.Theybwould still be mortal sins.Seems to me that would. Evan even greater reason for remaining Catholic,to receive the healing grace through Reconciliation.
G
garn9173
Guest
We’ve seen way too many similar threads. I suspect the OP went to his/her RCIA instructor with these same questions and not getting the response they were looking for from a TRUSTED indiviual, he/she has taken to the annonmity of a message board to get they answers they want, not even if they are the correct answers.Even if all the factors you listed were indeed mortal sins,how would leaving thevCatholic Church change anything.Theybwould still be mortal sins.Seems to me that would. Evan even greater reason for remaining Catholic,to receive the healing grace through Reconciliation.
IMO, OP, trust what your RCIA instructor is telling you, they know what they are doing.
P
Pug
Guest
Minion,
Your list contains some things that by your description probably you have in mind small matter or venial matter, something that is not a mortal sin. Also, in several cases you add the factor of passion or distress, like fear and grief. Strong passion can be a mitigating factor because it can reduce consent. In other words you could be describing some situations where the person was not giving full and free consent.
Also, circumstances change the seriousness of an offense. Consider the twix bar. You did not say who owned the bar. Say it belonged to a starving man and you deliberately took it and ate it in front of him out of malice, wanting to taunt him and then watch him starve to death, since he had no other food. This is different from some other situation, like say the bar was on a buffet table and everyone had already eaten and you snuck one from the table to give to your hungry sister.
My advice to you is if someone is presenting the teaching of the Church in a way that makes you think justice is meaningless to Catholics, then try to get them to sit down with you and take time to clarify or explain it more thoroughly, or else ask your parish priest or some other person well qualified to explain. God is just. Church teaching is not irrational, with no responsiveness to what is truly right. However, we don’t always see things as God does, us being finite and unable to grasp the big picture. One thing that can be challenging is how God gives gifts. See Matthew 20:1-16. There some folks are unhappy with God’s way of distributing wages. That doesn’t make God wrong, though.
Your list contains some things that by your description probably you have in mind small matter or venial matter, something that is not a mortal sin. Also, in several cases you add the factor of passion or distress, like fear and grief. Strong passion can be a mitigating factor because it can reduce consent. In other words you could be describing some situations where the person was not giving full and free consent.
Also, circumstances change the seriousness of an offense. Consider the twix bar. You did not say who owned the bar. Say it belonged to a starving man and you deliberately took it and ate it in front of him out of malice, wanting to taunt him and then watch him starve to death, since he had no other food. This is different from some other situation, like say the bar was on a buffet table and everyone had already eaten and you snuck one from the table to give to your hungry sister.
My advice to you is if someone is presenting the teaching of the Church in a way that makes you think justice is meaningless to Catholics, then try to get them to sit down with you and take time to clarify or explain it more thoroughly, or else ask your parish priest or some other person well qualified to explain. God is just. Church teaching is not irrational, with no responsiveness to what is truly right. However, we don’t always see things as God does, us being finite and unable to grasp the big picture. One thing that can be challenging is how God gives gifts. See Matthew 20:1-16. There some folks are unhappy with God’s way of distributing wages. That doesn’t make God wrong, though.
M
minion
Guest
Thank you your responses everyone. Admittedly, I did not completely understand what mortal sin was. My understanding was that mortal sin required full knowledge of that sinful act, and deliberate consent, but for some reason the “grave matter” part seemed to have been forgotten by me.
Thanks everyone, I think I’m okay now. I’ll just answer some of the questions and comments posed at me.
Rosemary131 - Thank you
Razanir:
Actually, I wasn’t sure a Vigil Mass was considered for the Sunday obligation either. hm…
Razanir:
Thanks everyone, I think I’m okay now. I’ll just answer some of the questions and comments posed at me.
Sometimes people make it sound that way. For example, I remembered a “fictional” story told about a thief that wanted to repent and go to confession, but kept putting it off. But the day he finally went, he got tempted to steal one more time, and afterwards he got hit by a car and went to hell. The lesson was to go to confession as soon as possible, but the story left me with a very negative view of God’s mercy.
That was the point - I was wondering if the Catholic Church taught God was really this absurd in condemning people to hell. Some responses concerning downloading mp3s from CDs you normally have to pay for, I’ve been told, both at CAF, RCIA, and other sources have told me it is a sin, which is why I stopped. If I’m wrong, someone please correct me, I haven’t had much to listen to lately because of it.
Rosemary131 - Thank you
Jeanne S:
I believe in a loving God, despite all the suffering in the world. But if the Catholic Church believed God sent people to hell for stealing a candybar and failing to go to confession…whatever the Church’s origins as the one true church, I couldn’t agree with such a position. The common rebuttal I’ll hear is, as long as you make God the focus, you’re okay. Because whatever the Church says, it is still only governed by man, and men make mistakes.
No, and he didn’t deliberately plan on skipping Church.
Actually, I wasn’t sure a Vigil Mass was considered for the Sunday obligation either. hm…
I heard both, and I’m not sure what to make of it myself.
Yes, I was getting worried that the Catholic faith was starting to be more about power and control - which many people do argue. Some aspects of the faith were starting to strike me as something done out of fear of hell rather than love.
I assumed I already knew what the Catechism taught (I was mistaken), and it was the Catechism that was being cited to justify some pretty puritanical things. Like how people don’t want to be bible-thumped with Bible verses to accept Jesus as your Savior, I didn’t want to be “catechism-thumped” and simply wanted a straight yes/no answer.
M
minion
Guest
Thank you for your response, and that is an interesting view of hell. I’ve never heard of it before.
I hear varying responses, even in RCIA, so it’s hard for sometimes to determine whether I’m taking in part of scrupulosity, or if I’m just trying to justify sinful behavior. To this day, I’m still not positive on the Catholic view of downloading mp3’s, because I’ve heard such a myriad of responses.
Well, I can’t turn off my intellect, but if Satan was bugging me, Satan got me to look for an answer to stay Catholic.
No, the golf didn’t attend Saturday evening. On the other hand, I wasn’t certain the Saturday evening mass fulfilled the Sunday obligation, so I learned something new from this thread.
revert jen:
Thank you, concerning internet, yeah, I’m getting that. But internet at times does seem more reliable lately.
In RCIA, it was hinted greatly that Judas was indeed in hell, which I disagreed with, as his suicide said to me he was remorseful. It can be hard for me to figure out the Church’s actual stance on things, because even saints like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas had contrary views on various topics, such as the state of unbapitized infants.
revert jen:
Afraid of the pain of pregnancy, uncertainties about her competence as a mother, but otherwise healthy. Husband just wants to make his wife happy.
Kind of hard when you get contrary opinions from them sometimes
Guess it’s bit late to clarify now, but the scenario I had in mind was:
- It’s a young man, with proper catechesis, not carrying any cash, and skipped breakfast, so he’s a little hungry. He has full knowledge, and deliberately consented to steal the candybar.
- He stole it from a large chain grocery store, reasoning it’s a big company, so the damage done is minimal.
The thinking here, is that poverty causes people to sin and steal, etc., because of their poor position in life (I’ve heard that a lot in rap songs to justify their actions). The retort I hear is if that was true, rich people would be the most saintly people in the world.
Again, thank you for the responses everyone.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Important to note (not sure if it was already) but when it said:
“Also, circumstances change the seriousness of an offense.”
I would not put it that way --I think I know what is meant there (as in the circumstance that is “part of the very object --making it the object that it is”) but such can confuse some issues involved.
Here is the info regarding moral object, circumstance and intention (for example it is important to note that circumstance cannot ever justify an intrinsic evil)
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm
and also of import here
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm
“Also, circumstances change the seriousness of an offense.”
I would not put it that way --I think I know what is meant there (as in the circumstance that is “part of the very object --making it the object that it is”) but such can confuse some issues involved.
Here is the info regarding moral object, circumstance and intention (for example it is important to note that circumstance cannot ever justify an intrinsic evil)
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm
and also of import here
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm
P
Pug
Guest
Theft is something that is sometimes mortal and sometimes venial, and one thing it depends on is the size/harm of the theft. You are describing a theft of a small amount of money for a particular area of the world and from someone the thief anticipates it won’t noticeably harm. This is normally classified as venial matter, so even if there is knowledge and consent, it still is not mortal. However, I offer warning that sometimes we wrongly judge that it doesn’t cause noticeable harm. Having to install security systems and hire people to constantly watch their patrons and raising prices accordingly has an effect on the whole town. Here is a quote from an older catechism (still Catholic and still a good one). I choose it because it seems rather on point to your question:Q. 1291. What sin is it to steal?
A. To steal is a mortal or venial sin, according to the amount stolen either at once or at different times. Circumstances may make the sin greater or less, and they should be explained in confession.
Note that theft is still a sin, even when it is venial. It is a good idea to strive to avoid all sins, even the small ones.
Concerning poverty and theft, you may have encountered an RCIA class talking about the topic of Social Justice and the Universal Destination of Goods. Here is a CCC (current Catechism) quote about that:2408 The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.
This does not give a person license to sit on their duff, refuse to work, claim they are starving and steal other people’s food. However, in some restricted cases a starving person can take food and it won’t be classified as theft (by your confessor. the long arm of the law may still be out to get you).
Hope that helps some. I’ve taught the social justice RCIA class myself, and I know the theft stuff and universal destination of goods causes concern for people. Ask if you want to know more.
J
JRKH
Guest
Glad to have been of help.
Yes - this is an all too common problem. Mainly because we as humans tend to think in terms of power and control. Yet if you think about it a bit…the Church is less about power and control than it is about a deep and profound responsibility.
To clarify just a bit on the “fear” factor (no pun intended)…and the journey that I mentioned toward familial love that I mention above…the Great saints of the mystic tradition in the Church have written extensively on this journey…How (if we pursue our faith) we grow from this very immature “fear” based belief toward a more Love based belief where we do not sin because of our Love for God - not our fear of Him.
The book that I mention in my signature is a great and easy read if you are interested in understanding this better.
Thanks for the clarification.
I guess you are finding out that in Catholicism there are few “Yes/No” answers…
Peace
James
J
Jeanne_S
Guest
F
fbl9
Guest
the bolded section is true if it was only a man is governing the Church, but the Church not governed by a man.For Christ is the head of the Church, and a man speaks in His place, iow the pope is God’s mouth piece. And God doesn’t make mistakes.
The Church does teach that stealing a candy bar can be a mortal sin, and mortal sin made by choice is a choice of self over God. Therefore one is seperated by stealing that candy bar.an earlier poster gave an example in which stealing a candy bar would a mortal sin.
As to the rubuttal “as long as your focus is on God…” when one took that candy bar who were they focused on God or self.
- Status