Does the Bible teach that we are to follow secular state laws as much as possible?

[CaliLobo]

Does the Bible teach that we are to follow secular state laws as much as possible?

Titus 3
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

Romans 13

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
In particular, do Titus 3 and Romans 13 teach that we are to be subject to the governing authorities? Does it follow that if we do not follow secular laws, then we are sinning?

Does this mean that we are sinning if we do not follow secular state laws? Is it a sin to drive too fast? Not be 100% accurate with taxes? Are we to support our governments and follow their authority, even though they do not follow Christian teaching, and downright oppress us sometimes? Do we need to support the police? Is it a sin to foment political change?

Or is this just foolish legalism?

 

[RyanEdmond]

Yes and no. The state must not replace God. Please read the following article:

libertarianchristians.com/2008/11/25/new-testament-theology-1/

 

[Faxero]

These bible verses don’t encourage us to follow secular state laws “as much as possible”. We are simply advised to respect secular authority.

There is nothing morally sinful with bowing down to your king if you are aware that Christ is the King of Kings.

Taxes are required to preserve the financial dignity of society.

If the police are benevolent, then we may help them do their jobs and pray for them. If the police are corrupt, then we must pray for them.

Give to God what is God’s, and to Caesar what is Caesar’s. Earthly authorities must not be worshiped, but respected. God’s supreme authority does not negate the fact that policemen, tax collectors, and military help preserve the nations.

If the persons behind secular governments and organizations are benevolent, then our compliance is needful. If our governments are depraved, then we must not follow their example, but correct them via the proper methods, such as voting for benevolent persons to take office, impeaching the evil ones, and encouraging our leaders as they struggle to lead our nations against Satan and sin.

 

[John_Martin]

:

There is nothing morally sinful with bowing down to your king if you are aware that Christ is the King of Kings.

.

If Jesus is Lord (King), that means that Caesar is not Lord (your King) even though he is A king. And you are not Subject to Caesar (he is not lord). You are subject to your King, Jesus.

As Jesus said to his disciples PRIVATELY, which is how we are talking, away from those who are not Catholic, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?” And when he said, “From others,” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself.”

You are “Sons of the Kingdom established by God”, living in the United States as aliens sojourning to meet your King, who is your Lord. The President is not your king, the popular vote is not your king, and the laws of the US are not the laws of your King. But you follow their laws to not give offense, even better than they do. You pay taxes to the US so as not to give offense, even with better honesty (true honesty) than they do, but you do not say “Caesar is Lord” - that is why Paul was always in trouble - when people met in the streets of his time, the greeting was “Caesar is Lord”, yet Paul would reply always, “Jesus is Lord”, there is a new King on the block who is Lord.

You are, as your first Pope told you, in his first Encyclical (1 Peter 2)

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation

 

[Faxero]

John Martin, bowing down to others does not equate to worshiping them. It is meant to be a sign of respect or submission.

I would have no problem bowing down to persons that I respect, my parents, for instance. It should be noted that the Israelites of old, including Christ, kissing each other’s feet.

The pope himself bowed down to Muslims. Anti-Catholics had a good laugh, but we know better.

The king of my country and the heavenly creator are both my kings. I am required to always value the authority of the infallible king over secular authority, while paying due respect to secular authority, which Christ approves of.

"Give to Caesar what is his, and to me what is mine."

 

[John_Martin]

John Martin, bowing down to others does not equate to worshiping them. It is meant to be a sign of respect or submission.

I would have no problem bowing down to persons that I respect, my parents, for instance. It should be noted that the Israelites of old, including Christ, kissing each other’s feet.

The pope himself bowed down to Muslims. Anti-Catholics had a good laugh, but we know better.

The Pope was not bowing to Allah, nor to Muslims as if they were the Pope’s Lord. He was recognizing them as rulers of this world, but not as His ruler. Your post said, “There is nothing morally sinful with bowing down to your king.” And my post was to say, who is “your king”.

It is correct, there is nothing wrong with bowing down to A king (paying taxes that A king exacts), but paying them to not cause offense rather than because he is “YOUR king”.

 

[St_Francis]

Does the Bible teach that we are to follow secular state laws as much as possible?

Titus 3
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

Romans 13

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
In particular, do Titus 3 and Romans 13 teach that we are to be subject to the governing authorities? Does it follow that if we do not follow secular laws, then we are sinning?

Does this mean that we are sinning if we do not follow secular state laws? Is it a sin to drive too fast? Not be 100% accurate with taxes? Are we to support our governments and follow their authority, even though they do not follow Christian teaching, and downright oppress us sometimes? Do we need to support the police? Is it a sin to foment political change?

Or is this just foolish legalism?

Not following state laws *can *be sinful. but is not necessarily. First, if a law requires one to sin, then one cannot support or follow that law. (So, a Catholic cannot pay for contraceptive coverage for family or employees.)

The main point of following the law is to maintain social order. If traffic on the highway generally runs 10mph over the speed limit, it would actually be dangerous to go at the speed limit; if the speed limit is not enforced til 15 mph over, then one can go that fast.

One ought to be as accurate as possible with paying taxes, but if those who make the rules put in loopholes, well, that’s what loopholes are for.

If a government does mot follow Catholic teaching but does not require someone to sin, the laws should be followed for the sake of social order.

As for oppression, as long as there are mechanisms in place to work to change the situation, we should obey the law and work to change the situation. Sometimes the oppression is too much *and *there is no recourse left. Then one can take other measures, under the Just Law theory (CCC civil unrest).

Do we need to support the police? Not sure what you mean by support.

And working to change things is an important part of being a citizen of a democracy.

 

[Faxero]

The Pope was not bowing to Allah, nor to Muslims as if they were the Pope’s Lord. He was recognizing them as rulers of this world, but not as His ruler.

:sad_yes: That’s exactly why I think showing respect to others in the form of bowing is not innately sinful.

Your post said, “There is nothing morally sinful with bowing down to your king.” And my post was to say, who is “your king”.

It is correct, there is nothing wrong with bowing down to A king (paying taxes that A king exacts), but paying them to not cause offense rather than because he is “YOUR king”.

:nope: Are you doubting my loyalty and my baptismal vows? Don’t interpret other people’s posts too much. I’m not implying that I view secular kings as the supreme authorities of this Earth.

I have two kings and two queens. I’m fully aware that one of these pairs is more important than the other.

 

[John_Martin]

:sad_yes: That’s exactly why I think showing respect to others in the form of bowing is not innately sinful.

:nope: Are you doubting my loyalty and my baptismal vows? Don’t interpret other people’s posts too much. I’m not implying that I view secular kings as the supreme authorities of this Earth.

I have two kings and two queens. I’m fully aware that one of these pairs is more important than the other.

No, not doubting, but calling you to say what you mean, and to think about what you say.

Right now you say you have two kings, two Lords, and you qualify that saying one is relatively more important than the other, and, by implication that one can serve two masters successfully (a Lord is a Master). Is that what you wish people to know, because that is what you are communicating.

 

[RyanEdmond]

:sad_yes: That’s exactly why I think showing respect to others in the form of bowing is not innately sinful.

:nope: Are you doubting my loyalty and my baptismal vows? Don’t interpret other people’s posts too much. I’m not implying that I view secular kings as the supreme authorities of this Earth.

I have two kings and two queens. I’m fully aware that one of these pairs is more important than the other.

One cannot have two kings and two queens.

Matthew 6:24-34:

“No one can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

To follow Christ is to be in the world but not of the world. We pay taxes and obey the law so that we may continue doing his work here on earth. Further, we are exhorted to trust in the Lord’s providence, not in the providence and promises of kings, presidents and such.

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat [or drink], or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they? 27 Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your life-span?[q] 28 Why are you anxious about clothes? Learn from the way the wild flowers grow. They do not work or spin. 29 But I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was clothed like one of them. 30 [r]If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is thrown into the oven tomorrow, will he not much more provide for you, O you of little faith? 31 So do not worry and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or ‘What are we to drink?’ or ‘What are we to wear?’ 32 All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom [of God] and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides. 34 Do not worry about tomorrow; tomorrow will take care of itself. Sufficient for a day is its own evil.

 

[Faxero]

No, not doubting, but calling you to say what you mean, and to think about what you say.

Right now you say you have two kings, two Lords, and you qualify that saying one is **relatively **more important than the other, and, by implication that one can serve two masters successfully (a Lord is a Master). Is that what you wish people to know, because that is what you are communicating.

:nope: I didn’t say that I think Christ is *relatively *more important than the kings below him. You misquoted my post.

In post #3, I said that Christ is the king of kings. This means that I acknowledge Christ to be above human authority while respecting human authority itself.

One cannot have two kings and two queens.

When I say that I have 2 kings and 2 queens, I don’t mean to say that I worship both parties.

The spiritual king and queen is Christ and Mary, while the civil kings are leaders of society. As Christians, we are required to respect both parties.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a4.htm
http://64.19.142.13/www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc.jpg

Duties of civil authorities

2235 Those who exercise authority should do so as a service. "Whoever would be great among you must be your servant."41 The exercise of authority is measured morally in terms of its divine origin, its reasonable nature and its specific object. No one can command or establish what is contrary to the dignity of persons and the natural law.

2236 The exercise of authority is meant to give outward expression to a just hierarchy of values in order to facilitate the exercise of freedom and responsibility by all. Those in authority should practice distributive justice wisely, taking account of the needs and contribution of each, with a view to harmony and peace. They should take care that the regulations and measures they adopt are not a source of temptation by setting personal interest against that of the community.42

2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged.

The duties of citizens

2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

2239** It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society** in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. **Submission **to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:

Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47

:yup: It’s perfectly fine to honor earthly authorities, such as kings and queens. Christ himself allows it, our church allows it, and I don’t need to repent of it.

The thread question is: “Does the Bible teach that we are to follow secular state laws as much as possible?” My answer is yes. Scripture does indeed remind us to respect the state’s authority.

 

[St_Francis]

One cannot have two kings and two queens.

Matthew 6:24-34:

To follow Christ is to be in the world but not of the world. We pay taxes and obey the law so that we may continue doing his work here on earth. Further, we are exhorted to trust in the Lord’s providence, not in the providence and promises of kings, presidents and such.

When we rightly obey those in authority over us, we are obeying Christ. We cannot serve two masters, but if someone is in authority over us, we serve Christ *through *our service to those in authority over us. And this is why we cannot obey a law which requires us to sin. If we were to obey such a law, then we would be putting the earthly authority over our Heavenly Authority.

 

[RyanEdmond]

When we rightly obey those in authority over us, we are obeying Christ. We cannot serve two masters, but if someone is in authority over us, we serve Christ *through *our service to those in authority over us. And this is why we cannot obey a law which requires us to sin. If we were to obey such a law, then we would be putting the earthly authority over our Heavenly Authority.

I can’t say I disagree with any of this. I obey civil authority, but often only because the consequence of disobedience is death. If I do not pay the taxes, armed men in uniforms will come to lock me up in a cage. If I resist these uniformed men, I will be killed. If that death is for Christ, I pray I would happily accept it. But I believe that I can do his will better by following the laws, so long as I am not required to sin. The sinful wars of the state, if I am made to support with my taxes, it is only because the money has been taken forcefully from me, under threat of imprisonment or death. Christ teaches that when we are persecuted by evil men, we should rejoice. So I feel no sorrow in this, but the truth demands that I speak when I see evil.

 

[RyanEdmond]

The thread question is: “Does the Bible teach that we are to follow secular state laws as much as possible?” My answer is yes. Scripture does indeed remind us to respect the state’s authority.

Would you have respected the authority of Hitler, and those he appointed to power? He was, after all, democratically elected.

I think we need to be wary and distrustful of authority, especially those holding monopolies on the use of force, on the dispensation of earthly justice, and those controlling the money supply. A nation is not voluntary, like religion. We have freedom to choose when it comes to religion, but not when it comes to government and the things monopolized by government.

 

[CaliLobo]

Interesting points. So is speeding a sin?

 

[St_Francis]

Interesting points. So is speeding a sin?

Not nexessarily. If you are doing 70 in a 55 zone and everyone else is going 70 or faster, then no. If you are unnecessarily endangering people, like driving past a playground on a residential street at 70, then yes.

 

[RyanEdmond]

Interesting points. So is speeding a sin?

Only if you are endangering yourself, your passengers, or others on the road, or pedestrians, cyclists, etc. I would say that if you are at all unsure about your driving abilities, keeping within the speed limits is a good idea. Most people, if they don’t know to start, learn what their abilities are over time, learn how fast they can safely drive. Many people fail to watch for pedestrians and cyclists. I have found riding my bike to be far more dangerous to myself than driving. But that has more to do with the awareness of drivers than how fast they are going. Many people drive “on autopilot,” without paying much attention.

Here is an article exposing the general harm of traffic laws:
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1028740/Accident-free-zone-The-German-town-scrapped-traffic-lights-road-signs.html

If anything, speed limits may be dangerous. As this article explains, the danger with speed limits is that they may lead to a great difference between the speeds of the cars on the road:
roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/3415.html

In general, most motorist drive at the speed which is appropriate given their ability in driving and the conditions of the road environment. There are no laws concerning bike speeds, but most cyclists can tell you that they adjust how they bike based on road conditions, traffic, weather, etc.

More useful than speed limits would be signs telling motorists about traffic, conditions, etc. to help them decide upon how fast or slow they should be driving.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I think the essence of the OP question can be better addressed by an example of a law that is in none of the categories discussed so far. What obligation do we have as children of God to obey a law that can be fairly easily disobeyed without being caught, and is neither opposed to nor supportive of serious moral values? A good example might be littering. If one is careful one can disobey this law without too much risk of getting caught. It is doubtful that littering is going to threaten anyone’s life. Yet if everyone did it, life would be much poorer, with all public places being a mess of liter.

 

[St_Francis]

I think the essence of the OP question can be better addressed by an example of a law that is in none of the categories discussed so far. What obligation do we have as children of God to obey a law that can be fairly easily disobeyed without being caught, and is neither opposed to nor supportive of serious moral values? A good example might be littering. If one is careful one can disobey this law without too much risk of getting caught. It is doubtful that littering is going to threaten anyone’s life. Yet if everyone did it, life would be much poorer, with all public places being a mess of liter.

Would littering be sinful because of itself or because some made a law against it?

I think the problem is that a lot of laws are based on morality: don’t steal, don’t commit fraud, don’t slander people, etc. So breaking those laws would be sinful even if that particular law didn’t exist.

Which is probably why people ask about speeding, which is not in and of itself a sin, which ought to be broken sometimes, and which is sometimes quite arbitrary, like all those years of 55.