Does the devil do God's Bidding?

[Catholig]

(note I already wrote this thing out, and when I attempted to post it it didn’t go through. So this is a re-write.)

A teacher of mine, said that he heard on public radio that the devil wasn’t seen as “Evil” prior to the evangelical movement of the 20th century. And that the devil was actually helping god by whatever he was doing. I disagreed, however he did question if God is all powerful why wouldn’t he just get rid of the Devil. My response was that the Devil is immortal, however he questioned saying doesn’t it say in the New Testament that in the end he (the devil) will be cast into the void.

So why does god allow the devil to exist if he can get rid of him at any time? Or conversly why can’t god get rid of the devil at any time. And do the early church fathers have anything to say about the devil helping god? And yes, I do mean disprove it. Thank you,

Catholig.

 

[Mirdath]

I don’t know about pre-20th century, but to say that the Devil did God’s bidding pre-Christianity is accurate. In the beginning of the book of Job, the Adversary is an angel who wanders the earth at God’s behest. He’s more lawyer than wannabe king of everything.

Job 1:6-7: One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

In the sense that it is used here, ‘satan’ means ‘accuser’; it is the office of an angel who tests humanity.

In Satan’s conversation with God, God asks if the accuser has noticed Job, a good and holy man; Satan, in keeping with his office, wonders if Job really is all that, and asks permission to test him.

There are, of course, demons mentioned in the Old Testament – the serpent in the garden, Asmodeus in the book of Tobit – but Satan was not among them. Further, the serpent is a metaphor, and Asmodeus is borrowed from Persian mythology where he is Aesma Daeva or Madness.

The Devil as supreme, evil Adversary is a Christian conception. Afraid I can’t help you with the early Church’s beliefs on him though.

 

[Angelos]

(note I already wrote this thing out, and when I attempted to post it it didn’t go through. So this is a re-write.)

A teacher of mine, said that he heard on public radio that the devil wasn’t seen as “Evil” prior to the evangelical movement of the 20th century. And that the devil was actually helping god by whatever he was doing. I disagreed, however he did question if God is all powerful why wouldn’t he just get rid of the Devil. My response was that the Devil is immortal, however he questioned saying doesn’t it say in the New Testament that in the end he (the devil) will be cast into the void.

So why does god allow the devil to exist if he can get rid of him at any time? Or conversly why can’t god get rid of the devil at any time. And do the early church fathers have anything to say about the devil helping god? And yes, I do mean disprove it. Thank you,

Catholig.

Hi Catholig,

Either your teacher or that radio program was wrong about devil’s being “good” or not “evil”. First, we should distinguish the notion of evil from that of uselessness. Satan does help God indeed, but that sort of help is almost involuntary since it is GOD that turns Satan’s evil plans to the benefit of the believers. In order to understand what I mean, you should read Joseph’s story in Genesis & ask these questions to yourself:

If God had known Joseph’s brothers would have killed him, why had he not killed those malignant and jealous brothers or just prevented them from selling their brother to foreigners as a slave? Why and how could a gracious & loving God let Joseph remain in prison for some time? (Let me give you a clue: God’s wisdom )

The only thing you should never forget is that God’s letting Satan cause trouble in this world is not the same as asking him to do so! Satan helps God to carry out His glorious & mysterious plans in the end, to his detriment and ruin!

Peace to you,
ANgelos N.

 

[Angelos]

Hi Mirdath

I guess you are new here, welcome to the forum.

I don’t know about pre-20th century, but to say that the Devil did God’s bidding pre-Christianity is accurate. In the beginning of the book of Job, the Adversary is an angel who wanders the earth at God’s behest. He’s more lawyer than wannabe king of everything.

Job 1:6-7: One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

In the sense that it is used here, ‘satan’ means ‘accuser’; it is the office of an angel who tests humanity.

In Satan’s conversation with God, God asks if the accuser has noticed Job, a good and holy man; Satan, in keeping with his office, wonders if Job really is all that, and asks permission to test him.

Sorry, but you seem not to have comprehended the Christian interpretation of that account in Job’s book.Christianity always endorses the Judaic doctrine that Satan is one of the angels, but the fallen one! More, the account in question aims to support the idea that God is the ultimate authority for letting a fallen angel cause trouble to test people. It’s clear in the context of Job’s story that Satan is distinguished from all the other angels and is allowed to test Job with evil. No such thing is stated about the other angels.

There are, of course, demons mentioned in the Old Testament – the serpent in the garden, Asmodeus in the book of Tobit – but Satan was not among them. Further, the serpent is a metaphor, and Asmodeus is borrowed from Persian mythology where he is Aesma Daeva or Madness.

Could u please clarify these comments of yours? Who were those demons in the Old Testament? Where did they originate from? Why were there many of them?

I agree with you that the serpent in Genesis is a metaphor, but a metaphor for what? Your post does not answer what was signified by the serpent & why? What do u believe the Bible copied from ancient cultures & mythologies: only symbols or concepts and tenets? If u believe the latter is true, this post is not supposed to be here, and should be moved to the section of “non-catholic religions”

What about Lucifer? Christian view on this name and its occurrence in Isaiah 14: 12-15 ?

The Devil as supreme, evil Adversary is a Christian conception. Afraid I can’t help you with the early Church’s beliefs on him though.

Another correction: Islam adopted this so-called Christian conception. According to several verses in the Islamic Scripture, Satan is a supreme, evil adversary that endeavours to harm humanity with his army and surprisingly helps Allah:

007: 027. O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

024: 021. O ye who believe! Follow not the footsteps of the devil. Unto whomsoever followeth the footsteps of the devil, lo! he commandeth filthiness and wrong. Had it not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy unto you, not one of you would ever have grown pure. But Allah causeth whom He will to grow. And Allah is Hearer, Knower.

018: 050. And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord’s command. Will ye choose him and his seed for your protecting friends instead of Me, when they are an enemy unto you ? Calamitous is the exchange for evil-doers.

Peace to you,
ANgelos N. B.

 

[Mirdath]

Hi Mirdath

I guess you are new here, welcome to the forum.

Well, newer than you by a month, thanks though

Sorry, but you seem not to have comprehended the Christian interpretation of that account in Job’s book.Christianity always endorses the Judaic doctrine that Satan is one of the angels, but the fallen one! More, the account in question aims to support the idea that God is the ultimate authority for letting a fallen angel cause trouble to test people. It’s clear in the context of Job’s story that Satan is distinguished from all the other angels and is allowed to test Job with evil. No such thing is stated about the other angels.

I wasn’t talking about the Christian interpretation of Job – it’s a Jewish text. The satan of Job is merely an angel with a job: test and play ‘devil’s advocate’ (pardon the two-for-one pun) against humanity. He is not fallen, and not the same angel as Lucifer; the satan (little s) stands with the other angels before God. He stands out in the text because he is a central character. Like I said, he’s more lawyer or prosecutor in God’s court than evil king.

Job provides a very interesting look at the heavenly bureaucracy that other books of the bible barely imply. Goethe later borrowed the conversation between God and the angel satan for the first part of Faust; however, Mephistopheles is undeniably evil. Still, as he introduces himself to Faust, he remarks that he is ‘part of that which would do evil forevermore, and yet creates the good’.

Could u please clarify these comments of yours? Who were those demons in the Old Testament? Where did they originate from? Why were there many of them?

Those demons were often simply gods, demigods, and spirits of other religions. Asmodeus/Aesma Daeva, as I mentioned, was Persian. Others may have been the angels who stayed on the earth after its creation and were responsible for the creation of the Nephilim in Genesis. Demons, djinni, geniuses – they go by many names, and are found in every mythos on Earth.

I agree with you that the serpent in Genesis is a metaphor, but a metaphor for what? Your post does not answer what was signified by the serpent & why? What do u believe the Bible copied from ancient cultures & mythologies: only symbols or concepts and tenets? If u believe the latter is true, this post is not supposed to be here, and should be moved to the section of “non-catholic religions”

The serpent in the garden was one example of an Old Testament demon. Its significance as metaphor isn’t really relevant here. As to your other question, yeah, that’s another thread. If you want to take it over there or in pm, go right ahead, I’ll find it

What about Lucifer? Christian view on this name and its occurrence in Isaiah 14: 12-15 ?

Isaiah’s career as a prophet is thought to have begun around 740 BC. At that point, Latin (the language in which the name Lucifer has any meaning) was barely extant in Italy, and unknown in Israel. Its anachronistic use there is entirely due to the translators.

Another correction: Islam adopted this so-called Christian conception. According to several verses in the Islamic Scripture, Satan is a supreme, evil adversary that endeavours to harm humanity with his army and surprisingly helps Allah:

Iblis isn’t the same thing as the Old Testament satan. He is supremely evil, and lord of the djinn; he’s not God’s prosecuting attorney. The Satan in the book of Job is not the devil.

 

[Angelos]

I wasn’t talking about the Christian interpretation of Job – it’s a Jewish text. The satan of Job is merely an angel with a job: test and play ‘devil’s advocate’ (pardon the two-for-one pun) against humanity. He is not fallen, and not the same angel as Lucifer; the satan (little s) stands with the other angels before God. He stands out in the text because he is a central character. Like I said, he’s more lawyer or prosecutor in God’s court than evil king.

Your personal interpretation of the text increases the number of evil spirits in the Bible.Satan’s or satan’s acting like a lawyer or prosecutor in God’s presence does not prove that he/she/it is not evil. As I said before, satan applies a test of affliction and endurance to Job, plotting evil against him. This is why the second time God speaks to Satan, He implicitly accuses him/her/it of bringing up false accusations against Job:
Job 2:3. And the Lord said to Satan: Hast thou considered my servant, Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a man simple and upright, and fearing God, and avoiding evil, and still keeping his innocence? But thou hast moved me against him, that I should afflict him without cause.

Thus, it is primarily not God that asks the supposed lawyer to test Job because the wish to test Job & challenge God first comes from Satan More, what makes Satan/satan a central character in Job’s story? Why is it set apart from the group of angels?

Those demons were often simply gods, demigods, and spirits of other religions. Asmodeus/Aesma Daeva, as I mentioned, was Persian. Others may have been the angels who stayed on the earth after its creation and were responsible for the creation of the Nephilim in Genesis. Demons, djinni, geniuses – they go by many names, and are found in every mythos on Earth.

Sorry to disagree with you I simply believe that demigods of other religions were the result of a misconception of Satan’s might & authority.Since people tended to regard everything that was mighty as god in accordance with polytheism, they deified some spirits as in Persian mythology.

Isaiah’s career as a prophet is thought to have begun around 740 BC. At that point, Latin (the language in which the name Lucifer has any meaning) was barely extant in Italy, and unknown in Israel. Its anachronistic use there is entirely due to the translators.

I am not talking about a foreign word, but the notion that was signified by that word. What did Isaiah refer to in that part of his book?

Iblis isn’t the same thing as the Old Testament satan. He is supremely evil, and lord of the djinn; he’s not God’s prosecuting attorney. The Satan in the book of Job is not the devil.

I quoted those verses from the Quran in order to highligt the similarities between *Christianity & Islam *in terms of Satan’s conceptualization. Nevertheless, Islam believes that Satan/Iblis was *the same angel *that Allah used to test people:

17: 61-64. And when We said unto the angels: Fall down prostrate before Adam and they fell prostrate all save Iblis, he said: Shall I fall prostrate before that which Thou hast created of clay ?He said: Seest Thou this (creature) whom Thou hast honoured above me, if Thou give me grace until the Day of Resurrection I verily will seize his seed, save but a few. He said: Go, and whosoever of them followeth thee - lo! hell will be your payment, ample payment. And excite any of them whom thou canst with thy voice, and urge thy horse and foot against them, and be a partner in their wealth and children, and promise them. Satan promiseth them only to deceive.

Actually, the Iblis in the Quran is but a combination of the devil in the Old Testament & satan in Job’s book.

Peace,
ANgelos N.

 

[Mirdath]

Your personal interpretation of the text increases the number of evil spirits in the Bible.Satan’s or satan’s acting like a lawyer or prosecutor in God’s presence does not prove that he/she/it is not evil. As I said before, satan applies a test of affliction and endurance to Job, plotting evil against him. This is why the second time God speaks to Satan, He implicitly accuses him/her/it of bringing up false accusations against Job:
Job 2:3. And the Lord said to Satan: Hast thou considered my servant, Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a man simple and upright, and fearing God, and avoiding evil, and still keeping his innocence? But thou hast moved me against him, that I should afflict him without cause.

Well, if the satan is the office of an angel of God, that would make that angel good, only antagonistic as a bureaucratic function at God’s command. As for the quote, God can rebuke his own, as the history of the Israelites shows. Satan tests humanity with God’s permission – and God is indeed complicit in these tests that wrack and ruin Job.

Thus, it is primarily not God that asks the supposed lawyer to test Job because the wish to test Job & challenge God first comes from Satan More, what makes Satan/satan a central character in Job’s story? Why is it set apart from the group of angels?

Challenging is the satan’s job. What good is a prosecuting attorney who doesn’t take the initiative? God holds up Job as an example of holiness because he knows the satan’s function is to object. God’s pulling the strings here – remember, angels do not have free will. He is ultimately responsible for what happens to Job, and is using it to prove that his creations are capable of unconditional love for him; why? for his own amusement, for all we can tell. If one looks, it’s not actually a very uplifting story.

Sorry to disagree with you I simply believe that demigods of other religions were the result of a misconception of Satan’s might & authority.Since people tended to regard everything that was mighty as god in accordance with polytheism, they deified some spirits as in Persian mythology.

More often than not they were nature spirits and things of that order. Sun-worship (Baal and Ra for instance, and even a monotheist sun power in the form of Aten) may be erroneous, but it’s got nothing to do with your devil. The word ‘demon’ did not originally connote evil either – it simply meant ‘spirit’.

Other gods are other gods; I think of them more as products of human striving to answer fundamental philosophical questions than manifestations of evil power. I believe the official stance of the Church is that all religions have a part of the truth in this way – at least the monotheistic ones.

I am not talking about a foreign word, but the notion that was signified by that word. What did Isaiah refer to in that part of his book?

Okay, reading Isaiah 14: Isaiah is speaking to his people, telling them they are mortal and that God will pass judgement over them (and strongly implies that they will be found wanting). The chapter starts mentioning the house of Jacob, and proceeds to address the Israelites directly. There is no shift of addressee between verses 3 and 12. The NAB and other versions do not mention the name Lucifer at all – and even for those that do, keep in mind that Lucifer is also a name for the planet Venus.

Here’s the NAB text of Isaiah 14:12: How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!

He’s still talking to the Israelites, prophesying their fall and doom. A devil is only implied in this chapter if one takes verse 12 completely out of context.

Actually, the Iblis in the Quran is but a combination of the devil in the Old Testament & satan in Job’s book.

My understanding of it is that Iblis is not a courtroom adversary but a tempter and destroyer; nor is he God’s enemy, he is mankind’s. He is lord of the djinn, not an angel in the Christian sense, and he sought to drag humans down to Jahannam where he was condemned by God. There is little similarity between that and the angelic adversary of Job.

 

[Angelos]

Well, if the satan is the office of an angel of God, that would make that angel good, only antagonistic as a bureaucratic function at God’s command. As for the quote, God can rebuke his own, as the history of the Israelites shows. Satan tests humanity with God’s permission – and God is indeed complicit in these tests that wrack and ruin Job.

The story does not designate satan as the office of an angel of God, nor does it even imply that satan was good. As I stated before, I believe satan to be the only evil character in this story since it is the only spirit set apart from the group of angels. Although it is true that God can rebuke His own - history of Israelites is an impaired analogy since a nation and a spirit have few things in common - God’s reproval is just and incurred by a motive. As far as I know, God does not rebuke people or spirits for no good reason. Ironically, God reproaches satan in Job’s second chapter for causing Him to move against Job for no good reason. God’s letting satan afflict Job does not denote His will. Consent & desire are different notions.

Challenging is the satan’s job. What good is a prosecuting attorney who doesn’t take the initiative? God holds up Job as an example of holiness because he knows the satan’s function is to object. God’s pulling the strings here – remember, angels do not have free will. He is ultimately responsible for what happens to Job, and is using it to prove that his creations are capable of unconditional love for him; why? for his own amusement, for all we can tell. If one looks, it’s not actually a very uplifting story.

If this atheistic/agnostic interpretation is true, why doesn’t God use another angel of His courtroom to test men and demonstrate their unconditional love for Him? Why are those tests of affliction & misfortune given to Job by satan rather than another angel or God Himself? Remember that those tests are devised by satan to prove Job’s proneness to cursing God, which is indispensably evil. The juxtaposition of the words “innoncence” & “evil” in the first chapter implies that God represents goodness whilst satan evil in this story:

Job 1:8. And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant, Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil?

Okay, reading Isaiah 14: Isaiah is speaking to his people, telling them they are mortal and that God will pass judgement over them (and strongly implies that they will be found wanting). The chapter starts mentioning the house of Jacob, and proceeds to address the Israelites directly. There is no shift of addressee between verses 3 and 12. The NAB and other versions do not mention the name Lucifer at all – and even for those that do, keep in mind that Lucifer is also a name for the planet Venus.

Here’s the NAB text of Isaiah 14:12: How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!

He’s still talking to the Israelites, prophesying their fall and doom. A devil is only implied in this chapter if one takes verse 12 completely out of context.

I disagree. The first verse of chapter 14 makes it clear that God is giving the house of Jacob the glad tidings of their restoration:
Isaiah 14:1. Her time is near at hand, and her days shall not be prolonged. For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose out of Israel, and will make them rest upon their own ground: and the stranger shall be joined with them, and shall adhere to the house of Jacob.

More to the point, verse 4 apparently addresses to the King of Babylon, making associations between mighty kings & heavenly hosts in terms of arrogance & rebellion.

My understanding of it is that Iblis is not a courtroom adversary but a tempter and destroyer; nor is he God’s enemy, he is mankind’s. He is lord of the djinn, not an angel in the Christian sense, and he sought to drag humans down to Jahannam where he was condemned by God. There is little similarity between that and the angelic adversary of Job.

According to the Quran, Iblis is Allah’s enemy too because it is a disbeliever:

002: 034. And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

004:076Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

Peace,
Angelos N.

 

[Mirdath]

The story does not designate satan as the office of an angel of God, nor does it even imply that satan was good. As I stated before, I believe satan to be the only evil character in this story since it is the only spirit set apart from the group of angels. Although it is true that God can rebuke His own - history of Israelites is an impaired analogy since a nation and a spirit have few things in common - God’s reproval is just and incurred by a motive. As far as I know, God does not rebuke people or spirits for no good reason. Ironically, God reproaches satan in Job’s second chapter for causing Him to move against Job for no good reason. God’s letting satan afflict Job does not denote His will. Consent & desire are different notions.

It does not imply that satan was evil either, merely that he patrolled the world. Nor is satan ‘set apart’ from the angels – indeed, he presents himself before God among them. He is of special note in that group because he speaks with God, while the other angels do not have a speaking role.

As to nations and spirits, yeah, flawed example How about God’s massive speech of reproach to Job himself near the end of the book?

If this atheistic/agnostic interpretation is true, why doesn’t God use another angel of His courtroom to test men and demonstrate their unconditional love for Him? Why are those tests of affliction & misfortune given to Job by satan rather than another angel or God Himself? Remember that those tests are devised by satan to prove Job’s proneness to cursing God, which is indispensably evil. The juxtaposition of the words “innoncence” & “evil” in the first chapter implies that God represents goodness whilst satan evil in this story:

Job 1:8. And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant, Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil?

All God’s saying there is ‘hey, check out Job, he’s a pretty neat guy’. The satan, as an accuser, is bound to object as it is his entire function. To make his case, he asks God for permission to test Job’s faith, and God allows it. And since angels have no free will, God is complicit in whatever his angels do.

More to the point, verse 4 apparently addresses to the King of Babylon, making associations between mighty kings & heavenly hosts in terms of arrogance & rebellion.

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

That’s still addressing the Israelites – however, you’re right, I did misread later parts. The ‘morning star’ reference would refer to Babylon then, and its fall after the end of the Captivity under Belshazzar. Still not Lucifer/Satan.

According to the Quran, Iblis is Allah’s enemy too because it is a disbeliever:

Must’ve run into a different interpretation, but I’ve got no problems conceding that

 

[Angelos]

It does not imply that satan was evil either, merely that he patrolled the world. Nor is satan ‘set apart’ from the angels – indeed, he presents himself before God among them. He is of special note in that group because he speaks with God, while the other angels do not have a speaking role.

Maybe you cannot see that implication in the text, but I can Pay attention to the fact that only satan is singled out from that group of angels. None of the other angels is mentioned or defined through a distinctive noun. Besides, God does not ask the other angels where they have been. It is easy to infer that satan’s expedition on the earth aimed to show God that it was almost impossible to find an upright & innocent soul like Job. Satan was evil because it determined the format of the test. Satan tempted Job, trying to lead him into sin. How can you call satan good when it is apparent that it makes efforts to destroy Job’s innocence & fear of God?

Job 1:22. In all these things Job sinned not by his lips, nor spoke he any foolish thing against God.

As to nations and spirits, yeah, flawed example How about God’s massive speech of reproach to Job himself near the end of the book?

What else would you expect to see in a book of Wisdom? This book was written to extol God’s might & wisdom. After all, Job was granted the prerogative of talking to God. God’s reproach also had a good reason: to condemn all those challenging Him through Job’s example.

All God’s saying there is ‘hey, check out Job, he’s a pretty neat guy’. The satan, as an accuser, is bound to object as it is his entire function. To make his case, he asks God for permission to test Job’s faith, and God allows it. And since angels have no free will, God is complicit in whatever his angels do.

Do not forget that satan desires to leave no one innocent on earth so as to prove God that men are worthless creatures that keep faithful to their creator only in times of favour. Accordingly, God sides with Job whereas satan uses its power to defame Job as well as debunk God’s assertions about Job’s constant love & faithfulness.

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

That’s still addressing the Israelites – however, you’re right, I did misread later parts. The ‘morning star’ reference would refer to Babylon then, and its fall after the end of the Captivity under Belshazzar. Still not Lucifer/Satan.

I suppose this text has a deeper meaning transcending the denunciation of earthly kings. My personal opinion is that the morning star pertains to the first arrogant king up in the sky. The King of the angels that rebelled against God & found himself deprived of God’s glory. So I will never consent to read this part in Isaiah as a simple reference to an earthly king with no *theological *implications. In short, as God used King of Babylon to punish His sinful nation - He let that King do it, meaning He did not do anything to prevent the king’s invasion & opressive reign - He also uses Satan to test humanity. Obviously, this does not mean that God likes satan or the King of Babylon because they both serve Him.

You are free to construe that chapter from a purely political & historical perspective though. We are definitely free to agree & disagree.

Take care,
Angelos N.

 

[Mirdath]

Maybe you cannot see that implication in the text, but I can Pay attention to the fact that only satan is singled out from that group of angels. None of the other angels is mentioned or defined through a distinctive noun. Besides, God does not ask the other angels where they have been. It is easy to infer that satan’s expedition on the earth aimed to show God that it was almost impossible to find an upright & innocent soul like Job. Satan was evil because it determined the format of the test. Satan tempted Job, trying to lead him into sin. How can you call satan good when it is apparent that it makes efforts to destroy Job’s innocence & fear of God?

The other angels really aren’t important to the story – if they all got speaking roles Job would be longer than the Bible as a whole is! The focus of that chapter is on the satan’s conversation with God – it’s wholly possible (and in my opinion likely, as they were presenting themselves, probably to report) that that was merely one among many interviews.

Satan is not evil because he tries to find fault with humanity – that’s his function. This partially mirrors Abraham’s conversation with God in the book of Genesis over the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where he haggled God down to a certain number of innocents in the cities that were to be destroyed for their sin which God assumed all citizens participated in.

Nor did the satan tempt Job, as the devil tempted Jesus in the desert; he merely made the man’s life utterly miserable to see if ruin and agony would cause him to turn against God.

Do not forget that satan desires to leave no one innocent on earth so as to prove God that men are worthless creatures that keep faithful to their creator only in times of favour. Accordingly, God sides with Job whereas satan uses its power to defame Job as well as debunk God’s assertions about Job’s constant love & faithfulness.

To leave no one innocent would be the goal of the devil; to see no innocents would be the goal of the satan as prosecutor against humanity. The wager over Job is indeed intended to prove that one God considers among the holiest of men is really only so while God favors him. Satan wants to see if that holiness will remain in the face of obvious divine disfavor; if it does, he can prove his case against humanity once and for all. It does not make the satan evil.

You are free to construe that chapter from a purely political & historical perspective though. We are definitely free to agree & disagree.

I still don’t see how it could refer to an angel, but okay

 

[JimO]

So why does god allow the devil to exist if he can get rid of him at any time? Or conversly why can’t god get rid of the devil at any time.

One of God’s greatest gifts to angels and humans is free will. He cannot violate our free will and that complicates everything. Satan makes his own choices and God will not change that. However, Satan does not know God’s plan or God’s will and he might unwittingly do things consistent with God’s will. Also, God works around our free will, and that of angelic creatures, to accomplish His plan. Satan isn’t willfully doing “God’s Bidding”, but neither is he thwarting God’s plan.

 

[Angelos]

The other angels really aren’t important to the story – if they all got speaking roles Job would be longer than the Bible as a whole is! The focus of that chapter is on the satan’s conversation with God – it’s wholly possible (and in my opinion likely, as they were presenting themselves, probably to report) that that was merely one among many interviews.

Satan is not evil because he tries to find fault with humanity – that’s his function. This partially mirrors Abraham’s conversation with God in the book of Genesis over the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where he haggled God down to a certain number of innocents in the cities that were to be destroyed for their sin which God assumed all citizens participated in.

I still wonder why only “this particular angel” has a noun that distinguishes it from the indefinite group of angels. I fail to understand how you can consider an **accuser **a good angel Satan does its best to accuse mankind before God, so it is sufficient for me to regard it as evil solely on the basis of its function.

Abraham did not accuse people, he tried to intercede for them and aimed to show us how fair & merciful God was. More, the people of Sodom were truly sinners.

Nor did the satan tempt Job, as the devil tempted Jesus in the desert; he merely made the man’s life utterly miserable to see if ruin and agony would cause him to turn against God.

Well, the devil did the same thing to Jesus, trying to persuade Him to leave God and follow His own desire. Both the satan & the devil had the same evil purpose: to make Job & Jesus go against God’s will.

To leave no one innocent would be the goal of the devil; to see no innocents would be the goal of the satan as prosecutor against humanity. The wager over Job is indeed intended to prove that one God considers among the holiest of men is really only so while God favors him. Satan wants to see if that holiness will remain in the face of obvious divine disfavor; if it does, he can prove his case against humanity once and for all. It does not make the satan evil.

But if it is your aim to see no one innocent, it is also your aim to leave no one innocent. Satan in Job’s story acted for a malicious purpose.

peace to you
Angelos N.

 

[Mirdath]

I still wonder why only “this particular angel” has a noun that distinguishes it from the indefinite group of angels. I fail to understand how you can consider an **accuser **a good angel Satan does its best to accuse mankind before God, so it is sufficient for me to regard it as evil solely on the basis of its function.

Because the satan is important to the story. The angel in charge of heavenly buttonholes is not. The book of Job is about a bet between two parties over a third (and the third party’s friends’ reactions to it all). Other characters are simply window-dressing, no matter their function, and there’s no need to go into their backgrounds and details. Gabriel is not named because no messengers are needed; Raphael is not named because no guides are needed; Michael is not named because no protectors are needed.

Think of it like a courtroom: God is the judge, Job is on trial, and the prosecuting attorney against him is the satan. The angel is still working for God and doing his bidding – but in order to successfully prosecute, he has to take some initiative. Antagonism is not necessarily evil; remember, the Vatican used to have a devil’s advocate in canonization cases. That advocate would try his absolute hardest to make sure the person being considered didn’t make it – but he was not evil.

Abraham did not accuse people, he tried to intercede for them and aimed to show us how fair & merciful God was. More, the people of Sodom were truly sinners.

It’s a mirror-image: Abraham would have been a defense attorney, not a prosecutor. And you’ll notice, both Abraham and the satan are successful for a time – then their cases fall apart afterwards. Sodom and Gomorrah are laid waste, and Job proves himself whiny but holy.

Well, the devil did the same thing to Jesus, trying to persuade Him to leave God and follow His own desire. Both the satan & the devil had the same evil purpose: to make Job & Jesus go against God’s will.

The devil approached that goal actively tempting Jesus; the satan got God’s permission, even blessing, to set Job up passively. The devil makes, the satan observes. The devil isn’t trying to prove a case one way or the other.

But if it is your aim to see no one innocent, it is also your aim to leave no one innocent. Satan in Job’s story acted for a malicious purpose.

Not necessarily. If one is an active agent (ie, the devil) then yes; if one is a passive observer and arm of God’s law, then no. The satan in Job acted for no purpose that was not especially allowed and prescribed by God; he chose only the manner by which the test was set up. The devil does not consult God as to what he is and isn’t allowed to do.

 

[Angelos]

Because the satan is important to the story. The angel in charge of heavenly buttonholes is not. The book of Job is about a bet between two parties over a third (and the third party’s friends’ reactions to it all). Other characters are simply window-dressing, no matter their function, and there’s no need to go into their backgrounds and details. Gabriel is not named because no messengers are needed; Raphael is not named because no guides are needed; Michael is not named because no protectors are needed.

No Gabriel or Raphael, but a group of angels! Plural versus singular, collective versus individual? Besides, the story does not say that satan was one of the angels. Satan’s presenting itself before God with the sons of men does not necessarily mean that it is one of them

Think of it like a courtroom: God is the judge, Job is on trial, and the prosecuting attorney against him is the satan. The angel is still working for God and doing his bidding – but in order to successfully prosecute, he has to take some initiative. Antagonism is not necessarily evil; remember, the Vatican used to have a devil’s advocate in canonization cases. That advocate would try his absolute hardest to make sure the person being considered didn’t make it – but he was not evil.

To follow your courtroom analogy: who is the Judge in Job’s case? God? Then who is the defense attorney? Why does God act both like a defense attorney & a judge? Can we find such applications in a courtroom? Satan is evil not because it does God’s bidding but because it does its best to make God a liar, not Job! Satan did not accuse Job to his face, nor did Job know that he was brought before God for a trial!

It’s a mirror-image: Abraham would have been a defense attorney, not a prosecutor. And you’ll notice, both Abraham and the satan are successful for a time – then their cases fall apart afterwards. Sodom and Gomorrah are laid waste, and Job proves himself whiny but holy.

Abraham did nothing to prove that God was merciless or wrong in his attitude to the people of Sodom and Gomorra. Satan, on the other hand, acted in order to vindicate itself that Job was not a holy and innocent person as God presumed.

The devil approached that goal actively tempting Jesus; the satan got God’s permission, even blessing, to set Job up passively. The devil makes, the satan observes. The devil isn’t trying to prove a case one way or the other.

How could the devil have even approached Jesus for a *benevolent greeting *if God had not allowed him? How could the devil have tempted Jesus if God had not let him live after Adam & Eve’s fall? The observer in Job’s story is not the satan, but God! More to the point, why would the devil waste its precious time by tempting people if it had no purpose? Why would God care about those temptations if the devil did not try to prove a case against God, using humans as its instrument?

I personally believe that the Book of Job presents satan/devil as a prosecutor only in order to teach people that God is the ultimate authority for everything! Nonetheless, permitting one and asking one to do evil for whatever objective are not identical.

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

 

[Mirdath]

No Gabriel or Raphael, but a group of angels! Plural versus singular, collective versus individual? Besides, the story does not say that satan was one of the angels. Satan’s presenting itself before God with the sons of men does not necessarily mean that it is one of them

The other angels are extras – they’re not important to the story. The satan is singled out among them because he is an important character.

To follow your courtroom analogy: who is the Judge in Job’s case? God? Then who is the defense attorney? Why does God act both like a defense attorney & a judge? Can we find such applications in a courtroom? Satan is evil not because it does God’s bidding but because it does its best to make God a liar, not Job! Satan did not accuse Job to his face, nor did Job know that he was brought before God for a trial!

God is the judge; Job represents himself; nobody said it had to reflect a modern American courtroom. In the old days, there was an accuser, a defendant, and a judge – no one else, other than spectators. And yes, Job had little to no idea he was on trial. It’s very Kafkaesque.

Abraham did nothing to prove that God was merciless or wrong in his attitude to the people of Sodom and Gomorra. Satan, on the other hand, acted in order to vindicate itself that Job was not a holy and innocent person as God presumed.

But they both had cases to present before God, and both argued them to the best of their ability. That’s the only parallel I’m drawing here.

How could the devil have even approached Jesus for a *benevolent greeting *if God had not allowed him? How could the devil have tempted Jesus if God had not let him live after Adam & Eve’s fall? The observer in Job’s story is not the satan, but God! More to the point, why would the devil waste its precious time by tempting people if it had no purpose? Why would God care about those temptations if the devil did not try to prove a case against God, using humans as its instrument?

Most of those questions are for a whole different thread

The satan does not tempt Job at all; he merely sets the situation up so God will judge whose point is proven. He asks God’s permission and gets it; the devil would go ahead and do as much as God let him get away with, without asking anything.

I personally believe that the Book of Job presents satan/devil as a prosecutor only in order to teach people that God is the ultimate authority for everything! Nonetheless, permitting one and asking one to do evil for whatever objective are not identical.

One of the central themes of Job is indeed that; however, it does not require any of the characters to be truly evil. It’s more an inquisition into the nature of good.

Permission and complicity are indeed normally different; however, when one gives permission to a being lacking free will, that changes. One is more than complicit – one is entirely responsible for the actions of such subordinates.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

Lucifer, was God’s most favored angel, and he rebelled. He was thrown down to Earth. Isaiah 14:

*12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!
13 You said in your heart: “I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!”
15 Yet down to the nether world you go to the recesses of the pit!
16 When they see you they will stare, pondering over you: “Is this the man who made the earth tremble, and kingdoms quake?
17 Who made the world a desert, razed its cities, and gave his captives no release?
18 All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb;
19 But you are cast forth without burial, loathsome and corrupt, Clothed as those slain at sword-point, a trampled corpse. Going down to the pavement of the pit,
20 you will never be one with them in the grave.” For you have ruined your land, you have slain your people! Let him not be named forever, that scion of an evil race!
21 Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.
*

The world is Satan’s [Lucifer] Kingdom. he refused to do God’s bidding in Heaven, why would one think he would do it on Earth.