Does the Eucharist have to be REAL PRESENCE?

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tom_Sikora

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Jesus said to do this in remembrance of me.

He noted that “this is my body and this is my blood”.

However, if the Spirit, Son and Father are equal, and that Jesus left the earth and sent The Holy Spirit, and if God (in general) is omni-present, why is the Eucharistic real presence necessary or any better that the strength, power and grace of the Spirit?
 
It is not necessary in the sense that God requires the Real Presence to bestow grace. God can give grace whenever, however.
 
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Jeremy:
It is not necessary in the sense that God requires the Real Presence to bestow grace. God can give grace whenever, however.
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Indeed, but how is it that you know you are recieving grace and how much? The gift of grace has no limits as God is infinite and it is a gift. So how do we know if we are in a state of grace, that is a state in which we stand before God always, ready to be judged?
God can give as much as he likes,mercifully and justifiably, so how do we know we are recieving grace, it’s not after all something that we feel physically. Jesus said “unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you”. “Life” as here seems to imply grace. What else does life mean? he’s not talking about our earthly lives because then he say’s "whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood *will have * life and *I will raise him up * on the last day. If God wanted to leave a means by which we could always be assured of his grace living in us, what’s to argue, after all he can use any means to give grace, can He not? It’s not a bad thing, hard to understand, yes (doth this scandalize thee?), but believing and understandind are two different things. After all do you understand how God took on human form and dwelt among us? But you believe!

Peace and Love
 
Two examples:
  1. When Pharaoh is chasing Moses, God told him to lift up his rod and stretch out his hand and divide the sea. Couldn’t God simply have parted the sea without Moses’ magic wand motions? Certainly.
  2. Jesus told a blind man to cover his eyes with mud and wash in water and his sight recovered. Couldn’t Our Lord simply have said “you are healed” and heal him? Of course.
So why does God tell his creatures to do these things when He doesn’t really need them? I’m not sure, but the Bible is chock full of examples of God using His creation and creatures instrumentally in acheiving His will. So it is with the Eucharist. God may be omnipresent, but just like so many biblical examples, he doesn’t leave it as a mere abstract theory. He involves both His creation (matter) and His creatures (the celebrant) in conveying His grace.

Scott
 
cyprian, I would disagree with you that grace is not something you can feel. It can be felt, but sometimes it is hard to discern. I would then agree with you that it is important for us to have physical signs by which we are sure to have received grace.

Whether the specific grace conferred by the Eucharist requires the Real Presence to be effective, I don’t know. I think it is necessary in the same sense that it was necessary for Christ to live and die for us, but I’m not sure anyone knows exactly what they mean here when they say “necessary”.
 
All:

Thank you for your replys. However, you missed my point.

I am not questioning grace, its abundance or overflowing nature from God.

I am noting the dogma that Catholics receive the real presense of Jesus and I am asking why does it need to be…

Further:

I pose this as an observation.

Why is essential to have the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Is God not everywhere? Did Jesus not sent the Holy Spirit to be our Consoler? Did Jesus not say he was going away (to allow the Spirit to come)? Was Jesus not coming back until the end of the world?

More directly, is, then, the Eucharist supposed to be concentrated God? If we are all filled with the Holy Spirit (at Baptism and Confirmation , etc) does come leak out that the Eucharist fills us up again.

Is a full glass of water tossed into the ocean wetter that an empty glass?!

The “in the breaking of the bread” was exactly that, the remembrance of me - they remembered Jesus - sounds like what Jesus asked in the first place. Note too that they didn’t realize that Jesus was Jesus in the partaking of the bread (that is after they ate the bread), but in the act of celebrating the moment and rejoining the Last Supper.

Comments appreciated.

tom
 
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. The Church has the dogma of the Real Presence because that it is how it is. It is not forced into accepting it by its other doctrines and dogmas.
 
tom Sikora:
Jesus said to do this in remembrance of me.

He noted that “this is my body and this is my blood”.

However, if the Spirit, Son and Father are equal, and that Jesus left the earth and sent The Holy Spirit, and if God (in general) is omni-present, why is the Eucharistic real presence necessary or any better that the strength, power and grace of the Spirit?
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Because Christ Himself said “Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood you have NO life in you.”
“He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood, lives in Me and I in him.”

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do not have flesh and blood. Only God the Son. The only way that Christ can allow us to fulfil His command to Eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood is to provide for the bread to become His Flesh and the wine to become His Blood. They recognize Him in “The Breaking of the Bread” as He offered the bread and broke it, in other words at the moment of Consecration.
 
Why is the real presence “necessary?” Only because Jesus commanded it and gave it to us. Perhaps one might want to argue with Him that “this isn’t really necessary.” It is his decision, not ours.

Perhaps he wanted every one of us to be able to be present at the events of our salvation.
 
Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, wants to be with us and He left the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist as Real Presence as the means to do this. We are the pearls of great price in God’s eyes. We are not trash. Jesus wants to be with His treasure. We are not trash. The devil tells us that “God wants nothing to do with us.” Luther tells us that we are simply POS covered by God’s grace. No. We are His treasure. “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold new things have come” (NAS 2 Corinthians 5:17). Jesus wants to be with His new creation.

We are both spirit and body. Jesus wants to be with us not only in spirit but also in body. God is everywhere in the world in His Divinity. He instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist so that he could remain with us in His Humanity as well. And not only remain with us as man but also as man enter our soul and body. When we receive Holy Communion His body enters into our body, His soul enters into our soul. That’s how intimate Jesus Christ wants to be with us. Talk about a “personal relationship with Christ” !
 
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pazdziernik:
Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, wants to be with us and He left the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist as Real Presence as the means to do this. We are the pearls of great price in God’s eyes. We are not trash. Jesus wants to be with His treasure. We are not trash. The devil tells us that “God wants nothing to do with us.” Martin Luther tells us that we are simply POS covered with God’s glory. Luther says God may see in us a reflection of His own glory but at heart we are POS and always will be. No. At heart we are His treasure. “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold new things have come” (NAS 2 Corinthians 5:17). Jesus wants to be with His new creation.

We are both spirit and body. Jesus wants to be with us not only in spirit but also in body. God is everywhere in the world in His Divinity. He instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist so that he could remain with us in His Humanity as well. And not only remain with us as man but also as man enter our soul and body. When we receive Holy Communion His body enters into our body, His soul enters into our soul. That’s how intimate Jesus Christ wants to be with us. Talk about a “personal relationship with Christ” !
Click to expand...
 
tom Sikora:
Why is essential to have the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Is God not everywhere? Did Jesus not sent the Holy Spirit to be our Consoler? Did Jesus not say he was going away (to allow the Spirit to come)? Was Jesus not coming back until the end of the world?
Click to expand...
After Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to be with us (John 14:16) He promised that He Himself would remain as well: “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” (NIV John 14:18). Jesus is both Divine and Human. He did not say that He would only come to us in his Divinity. No. The “I” include the total Jesus, both God and man. (The Holy Spirit does not have a body.)

"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. (NIV John 15:7)

The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is the way in which Jesus comes to us and we can remain in Him.

Jesus will come back at the end of time visibly and in power just as he ascended to the Father. For now, he remains invisible through the senses and in humility as Holy Eucharist. Jesus is both in heaven and on earth just as the Incarnation united the two. Creation was united to the Creator in Jesus Christ at the Incarnation and remain so.
 
Sorry. I was trying to edit #10 and got #11. I don’t know what happened to the edit button. Please ignore #10 and read #11 in its place.
 
Why is essential to have the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Is God not everywhere? Did Jesus not sent the Holy Spirit to be our Consoler? Did Jesus not say he was going away (to allow the Spirit to come)? Was Jesus not coming back until the end of the world?

Wow,

It’s like reading my past views literally. It is true that the Lord can do what he wishes and he can be accessed anyplace at any time. But where do you search for him? Is it not better to have more options? God has placed a literal presence over the new and ever lasting covenant.

When I visit the Eucharist in adoration as a (presently) non Catholic I am filled with more grace and it happens much more consistently than it does with prayer by a long shot. This is in no way is meant to underestimate the power of prayer. The Eucharist is a place to seek the spirit and grace besides within ones self. Being in Gods presence in this way is a very powerful thing with regards to prayer and the spirit entering into you.

Can you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit without the Eucharist? Of course you can, but when I show up at the Eucharist it’s a totally different experience and I can tell that the Lord is truly there which makes seeking him much easier because I am in the Holy presence. I always walk out feeling much better than I went in. You could ask the same question about Gods literal presence over the arc of the coevenant. Why did he need to do that if he is everyplace? It’s a covenant between him and us, he will honor it I’m sure, and I’m seeing more and more that he stays present (literaly) in his covenants.

-D
 
tom Sikora:
All:

Thank you for your replys. However, you missed my point.

I am not questioning grace, its abundance or overflowing nature from God.

I am noting the dogma that Catholics receive the real presense of Jesus and I am asking why does it need to be…

Further:

I pose this as an observation.

Why is essential to have the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Is God not everywhere? Did Jesus not sent the Holy Spirit to be our Consoler? Did Jesus not say he was going away (to allow the Spirit to come)? Was Jesus not coming back until the end of the world?

More directly, is, then, the Eucharist supposed to be concentrated God? If we are all filled with the Holy Spirit (at Baptism and Confirmation , etc) does come leak out that the Eucharist fills us up again.

Is a full glass of water tossed into the ocean wetter that an empty glass?!

The “in the breaking of the bread” was exactly that, the remembrance of me - they remembered Jesus - sounds like what Jesus asked in the first place. Note too that they didn’t realize that Jesus was Jesus in the partaking of the bread (that is after they ate the bread), but in the act of celebrating the moment and rejoining the Last Supper.

Comments appreciated.

tom
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The jewish idiom “Remembrance” meant to make that person actually present to you, like he was actually there. It’s necessary(real presence) simply because Jesus said so. “This is my Body”
“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man” “Life” and so on. What other proof do you need? it’s a continuum of the incarnation, God enjoining Heaven and earth, the substance(Jesus’ Body) is still with us. What a Joy! Your glass of water idea brings to mind that there are different rooms(levels) in the Heavenly Mansion like two glasses of water, one larger than the other yet both are full. Do you think that what you believe, things like real presence and such, things that Jesus taught, will they have any measure to the Glory of God that you participate in, in Heaven? What if all these things Catholic really do what they claim(sacraments) and what if it was necessary to believe and you didn’t. Do you think God would punish you if you did believe but were wrong. This is why I believ…ready? Cause Jesus said so. And I want to go through the narrow gate.

Peace
He IS ALL ,IN ALL, FOR ALL
i AM NOTHING
 
Did Christ Have to have created Real Presence when He created the Eucharist. No, of course not. God can do anything He wishes.

But He did and we have to respect and acknowledge the fact that Christ desired the Eucharist to be His actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
 
tom Sikora:
All:

Thank you for your replys. However, you missed my point.

I am not questioning grace, its abundance or overflowing nature from God.

I am noting the dogma that Catholics receive the real presense of Jesus and I am asking why does it need to be…
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree. I suggested (perhaps in a roundabout way) that the Real Presence is not strictly necessary in the sense that if God didn’t do it this way, we would all be out of luck. But it is reasonably necessary because it jives with the mountain of examples from the OT and NT. God is always using the real word(matter and His creatures) to convey His grace. It is silly to suggest that this one feature alone is going to be all symbol and spirit. That’s quasi-gnosticism.

Another example would be the Immaculate Conception. God was not bound by some strict necessity to preserve Mary from sin. But it is completely fitting because throughout the Scriptures God doesn’t just give us a bunch of logical propositions to which we must give mere assent. He gives us real world demonstrations. He is not just tell, He is show and tell.

Scott
 
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