Does the moral argument disprove sola fide?

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Boywonder23k

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The “moral argument” seems to rebound back on protestant apologists and theologians. If one is to affirm that
  1. objective moral values and duties exist
and also…
  1. mans conscience responds to what God has written on his heart
one must also admit that…

3 Universal agreement of underlying moral principles is a good indication as to what Gods moral Law is.

Once all three of those premises are granted, the observation that…
  1. Man universally agrees that his deeds will play a role in determining his eternal destiny (either positively or negatively).
Becomes devastating to the protestant doctrine of “sola fide” because it entails that…
  1. God has written on the hearts of man that their deeds do play a role in determining their eternal destiny (either positively or negatively).
Which would then disprove the idea that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone!

The entire argument is presented here…

coffeehouseinquisition.com/moral-argument-against-sola-fide/#sthash.bsxaVYmj.dpuf

Does this argument disprove protestantism?
 
A Protestant could argue that good works are the result of faith which may not be evident!
 
Not that I care to defend sola fides, but I don’t think this argument threatens it a whole lot. It does not purport to be a demonstration because (3) says that universal moral agreement is a “good indication” of God’s moral law. A Protestant then can claim that there are exceptions, so that not everything that is universally agreed upon can rightly be ascribed to God’s moral law. (And he could probably come up with a justification for this exception by appealing to man’s sinfulness and pride.) Some arguments can be “good” arguments even if they are somewhat probabilistic and non-demonstrative, but in this case, the author really needs the argument to be a demonstration where each premise is certain.

I think one should also be worried about accepting (3) and (4) anyway. Who says they are true? Increasingly people reject the idea that their moral decisions will effect their eternal destiny. And despite agreement on conclusions (ie. don’t murder adult human beings, don’t rape, don’t commit pedophilia), there is not necessarily a lot of agreement on the underlying moral principles. Many non-believers would say that evil can be committed so that good may come of it. Or they would say that pedophilia is only wrong because a child is unable to give consent (whereas a Christian regards consent as a necessary but not sufficient condition for intercourse to be moral).

I think the moral argument is not very good, anyway, because I also would not accept the following argument:

(1) If God exists, then relativism is false.
(2) Relativism is true.
(3) Therefore, God does not exist.

A lot of people today have a strong conviction that (2) is true. But the above is clearly a pretty bad argument, even if it were sound.
 
I think you should read scripture on sola fide. 😛
A good starting point would be Mark 9,42-50. My opinion. 😉
 
We could easily swap out “good indication” with “reliable indication”. Predestination 1 and 2 would seem to be supported by Romans 2 and Pauls teaching on the gentiles, their conflicting conscience, and the law being written on their hearts. The rest of the premesis are supported by protestants themselves (who happily admit and celebrate that all the religions of the world differ from them on this point) Peter Kreeft and CS Lewis.

See argument 19 of kreefts at this link

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

CS Lewis argument for moral consenus found here

merechristianitystudyguide.blogspot.com/2008/12/c-s-lewiss-three-arguments-for-moral.html?m=1

I think that protestants might be trapped here. Either a. Give up the cherished motto that all religions are different from yours in regards to the role of works or b. Be forced to argue with scripture, CS Lewis and Kreeft. Seems solid so far as I can tell
 
We could easily swap out “good indication” with “reliable indication”.
Those don’t seem different to me, unless by reliable you mean something like infallible.

Then that still doesn’t solve the issue that there isn’t universal agreement on many moral issues, including (in this case) whether man can determine his destiny.
I think that protestants might be trapped here. Either a. Give up the cherished motto that all religions are different from yours in regards to the role of works or b. Be forced to argue with scripture, CS Lewis and Kreeft. Seems solid so far as I can tell
It’s interesting you think so.
 
Polytropos,

It doesnt matter if there are surpass level differences. Most of these can be explained away. For example, the CS Lewis study guide explains…

"Lewis’s second argument is the Argument from Underlying Moral Consensus:
  1. If morality were a subjective matter, we would expect to find sizable differences of fundamental principles amongst moral codes.
  2. But there is, in general, agreement concerning fundamental principles amongst moral codes.
  3. Therefore, morality is objective rather than subjective.Yes, there are differences in moral codes. However, some differences in moral codes can be explained in terms of differences about the facts.
People don’t burn witches today (Lewis’s example) not because using Satan’s supernatural powers wouldn’t a serious offense against humanity to warrant severe punishment, but because we no longer believe people actually have and use such powers.

Consider also the differences concerning human sacrifice. (Ollie’s example) The ancient Aztecs thought it was right to sacrifice humans, we do not. However, the Aztecs and ourselves both believe that we have a prima facie obligation not to kill people. The Aztecs, however, believed that there were gods who had the right to demand human sacrifices, and when they are demanded, the duty not to kill is overridden by the moral requirement to do what the gods command. The Abrahamic tradition, going back to, well, Abraham, maintains that the true God does not make those sorts of demands.

Other differences can be explained in terms of how widely we expand the concept of “neighbor.” Moral codes require that we treat our neighbor with respect, but we may limit the concept of “neighbor” to one’s fellow tribe member, or countryman, or a member of one’s own race, etc. It is Jesus’s contribution (in the parable of the Good Samaritan) to our moral understanding that we ought to assess the question “Who is my neighbor” from the bottom of a ditch.

“I only ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of doublecrossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might as well imagine a country in where two and two made five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to—whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or everyone. But they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked.”

-CS Lewis

So, according to Lewis there is a consensus on under lying morality. My assertion is that one such underlying consensus is that man actions play some role in determining his eternal destiny. Even if you dont agree with this… Protestants do! They make that claim for themselves (being the only religion that man plays no role). You can disprove the premis buy showing just one other religion, In the entire history of mankind, who didnt think their deeds counted, besides the tiny sliver of the population known as reformed protestantism… Bet you cant do it
 
The “moral argument” seems to rebound back on protestant apologists and theologians. If one is to affirm that
  1. objective moral values and duties exist
and also…
  1. mans conscience responds to what God has written on his heart
one must also admit that…

3 Universal agreement of underlying moral principles is a good indication as to what Gods moral Law is.

Once all three of those premises are granted, the observation that…
  1. Man universally agrees that his deeds will play a role in determining his eternal destiny (either positively or negatively).
Becomes devastating to the protestant doctrine of “sola fide” because it entails that…
  1. God has written on the hearts of man that their deeds do play a role in determining their eternal destiny (either positively or negatively).
Which would then disprove the idea that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone!

The entire argument is presented here…

coffeehouseinquisition.com/moral-argument-against-sola-fide/#sthash.bsxaVYmj.dpuf

Does this argument disprove protestantism?
No. Traditional Protestantism is based on the idea that everyone knows the moral law and that it is necessary in order to find favor with God. Divine revelation tells us that God has made a way for us to be united to Him even though we can’t keep the moral law (perfectly, which in this theology is the only thing that counts for salvation purposes).

I don’t see that this is undermined by the “moral argument,” except in a broad psychological/rhetorical sense.

Edwin
 
Edwin,

Does traditional protestantism teach that our deeds , at least in some way, can help determine our eternal destiny Yes or no? If no, there is a serious disconnect between you and the rest of the world… And thats a problem.
 
The “moral argument” seems to rebound back on protestant apologists and theologians. If one is to affirm that
  1. objective moral values and duties exist
and also…
  1. mans conscience responds to what God has written on his heart
one must also admit that…

3 Universal agreement of underlying moral principles is a good indication as to what Gods moral Law is.

Once all three of those premises are granted, the observation that…
  1. Man universally agrees that his deeds will play a role in determining his eternal destiny (either positively or negatively).
Becomes devastating to the protestant doctrine of “sola fide” because it entails that…
  1. God has written on the hearts of man that their deeds do play a role in determining their eternal destiny (either positively or negatively).
Which would then disprove the idea that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone!

The entire argument is presented here…

coffeehouseinquisition.com/moral-argument-against-sola-fide/#sthash.bsxaVYmj.dpuf

Does this argument disprove protestantism?
The fact that objective morality for humans exists as a reflection of God’s will for man does not in itself prove that He demands that we obey it, even though we know by revelation-and common sense IMO-that He does. Man sins, but God didn’t create man to sin; God doesn’t cause or desire evil. He desires that order and justice be restored to His universe, even though He won’t force the issue, preferring to work with His creation instead, drawing and leading us into greater and greater perfection, into willing alignment with His own will. That’s the purpose of the New Covenant, where God truly becomes the God of man again (Jer 31:34), and begins to place His law on our hearts and write it in our minds (Jer 31:33). This He does by transforming us into a His image, with our cooperation, which means into beings who love as He does, love being that virtue which fulfills the law-the right way, the way God always intended for us-by its very nature. This is how we’re justified, as we turn to Him in faith as a response to His calling. This is how we’re made just; man’s justice is defined by love, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are.
 
So, according to Lewis there is a consensus on under lying morality. My assertion is that one such underlying consensus is that man actions play some role in determining his eternal destiny.
Right. I don’t believe these are true. The counterexamples today are endless. Nor have they even been true historically; the early Christians, for instance, differed significantly from their pagan neighbors. Likewise with the Jews and the Gentiles.
Even if you dont agree with this… Protestants do!
I thought Protestants did not accept the second premise, that man’s actions play some role in determining his eternal destiny. Isn’t that why the conclusion of the argument (“God has written on the hearts of man that their deeds do play a role in determining their eternal destiny (either positively or negatively).”) is supposed to be in tension with Protestantism?
 
Right. I don’t believe these are true. The counterexamples today are endless. Nor have they even been true historically; the early Christians, for instance, differed significantly from their pagan neighbors. Likewise with the Jews and the Gentiles.

I thought Protestants did not accept the second premise, that man’s actions play some role in determining his eternal destiny. Isn’t that why the conclusion of the argument (“God has written on the hearts of man that their deeds do play a role in determining their eternal destiny (either positively or negatively).”) is supposed to be in tension with Protestantism?
Did the early Christians have an entirely different morality than the pagans? For example, did the pagans believe that murder was a virtue? Or that theft was to be applauded? Did the pagans believe that it was a good thing to abandon their children upon birth?

If you read a newspaper that read “Mexico decides that murder is morally neutral” would you respond; “Oh, yes, that is to be expected. Humans have always wildly differed on moral principles such as these”?

If you are going to argue that there are no underlying moral principles that humanity has agreed upon how do you reconcile Paul’s teaching on the gentiles in Romans chapter 2? Has God written His Law on the hearts of men or no? The reason why the common myth that “all religions are basically the same” is so prevalent is precisely because of this unanimous structure upon which man has always built his moral code.We may differ on what makes murder “OK” but we all understand that there is a primafacie obligation not to murder just anyone at all. Similarly, we may all have different ideeas on what deeds are necessary or to what degree our works contribute to our eternal destiny… but we all agree that they DO play a role.

At this point you raise the objection that “well, protestants don’t think so and therefore it is not universal”. But this is to miss the point! Sure, Reformed protestants deny this, as do atheists (who have no belief in an afterlife at all) but that does not diminish the fact that there has been and still exists today all things considered a universal consent amongst all of mankind that our deeds do play a role in our eternal destiny. Protestants celebrate this fact and brag in their “uniqueness”. Hence Matt Slick can claim that;

“All other systems rely totally or in part on the works of the believer to merit salvation.”

and Michael Houdmann can say;

“Sola fide or faith alone is a key point of difference between not only Protestants and Catholics but between biblical Christianity and almost all other religions and teachings.”

Hence, protestants will actually tend to agree with every premise and yet want to reject the conclusion! Which is why I say they are trapped.
 
Consider that no one would object that “child molestation” has been unanimously decreed by man as an evil… and yet, there may exist some society somewhere on earth that abuse their young. Or some gangs that will initiate their members in perverse manners. These exceptions are hardly noteworthy and can (in my opinion) be considered bazaar anomalies who must have some defect. In the same way that we can ALL clearly see that a sociopath is not normal… I believe that we can ALL clearly see that what protestantism teaches violates something that has been intrinsically built into mankind.
 
Did the early Christians have an entirely different morality than the pagans? For example, did the pagans believe that murder was a virtue? Or that theft was to be applauded? Did the pagans believe that it was a good thing to abandon their children upon birth?

If you read a newspaper that read “Mexico decides that murder is morally neutral” would you respond; “Oh, yes, that is to be expected. Humans have always wildly differed on moral principles such as these”?
Not entirely different. People often agree about moral conclusions; I conceded that in my first post. My point then and now is that people disagree about moral principles. A Christian believes that murder is wrong because humans are uniquely valuable rational creatures created in the image and likeness of God. For nonbelievers, it is much more instrumental; murder is bad because it deprives someone of some goods (and perhaps because there would be bad consequences if everyone deprived others of some good). And these differences in principle do show in practice: euthanasia, abortion, etc.

The other example I gave was pedophilia. For a Christian, a child is an inherently pre-sexual creature, and engaging in intercourse with someone whose end is not to have sex (to say nothing of the lack of a proper marriage context) is intrinsically immoral. For many nonbelievers (though I don’t want to generalize here), consent is a necessary and sufficient condition for moral intercourse, so pedophilia is wrong not intrinsically but contingently, because children are deemed unable to give consent. (Or bestiality: animals are deemed unable to give consent. We regularly use animals for food, labor, and companionship against their consent however, so it is unclear why consent alone should bar us from using them for sex. The reason we should not engage them in intercourse is rather that it is in intrinsic opposition to our natural ends as humans and theirs as non-humans.)

I do not concede that people agree on morality if they hold some of the same conclusions.
If you are going to argue that there are no underlying moral principles that humanity has agreed upon how do you reconcile Paul’s teaching on the gentiles in Romans chapter 2? Has God written His Law on the hearts of men or no?
I agree with Paul. But that the law is written on our hearts and that someone of good will can naturally uncover moral principles from an investigation into his own nature* is not to say that in practice there is agreement on moral principles.

*That said, this might be taken generally in tension with Protestantism, which is why there have been relatively few Protestant natural lawyers. J. Budziszewski was a Protestant who started developing natural law theory–until he converted.
At this point you raise the objection that “well, protestants don’t think so and therefore it is not universal”. But this is to miss the point! Sure, Reformed protestants deny this, as do atheists (who have no belief in an afterlife at all) but that does not diminish the fact that there has been and still exists today all things considered a universal consent amongst all of mankind that our deeds do play a role in our eternal destiny. Protestants celebrate this fact and brag in their “uniqueness”. Hence Matt Slick can claim that;

“All other systems rely totally or in part on the works of the believer to merit salvation.”

and Michael Houdmann can say;

“Sola fide or faith alone is a key point of difference between not only Protestants and Catholics but between biblical Christianity and almost all other religions and teachings.”

Hence, protestants will actually tend to agree with every premise and yet want to reject the conclusion! Which is why I say they are trapped.
I was not aware that Protestants viewed themselves this way. But I still don’t find the argument demonstrative.

However, if you do find it convincing, I would happily welcome you into the Catholic fold. :highprayer:
 
The other example I gave was pedophilia. For a Christian, a child is an inherently pre-sexual creature, and engaging in intercourse with someone whose end is not to have sex (to say nothing of the lack of a proper marriage context) is intrinsically immoral. For many nonbelievers (though I don’t want to generalize here), consent is a necessary and sufficient condition for moral intercourse, so pedophilia is wrong not intrinsically but contingently, because children are deemed unable to give consent. (Or bestiality: animals are deemed unable to give consent. We regularly use animals for food, labor, and companionship against their consent however, so it is unclear why consent alone should bar us from using them for sex. The reason we should not engage them in intercourse is rather that it is in intrinsic opposition to our natural ends as humans and theirs as non-humans.):
I think for many non-believers – as regards both pedophilia and bestiality – there’s the notion that, insofar as these actions constitute non-consensual sex – really a euphemism for rape – they are inflicting some form of psychological damage or trauma on the recipient. Regarding animals, I suppose it’s debatable to what extent such rape would be psychologically traumatic – given that the psychological constitution of other mammals is debatable --and it may be that we are anthropomorphizing here, or projecting our mental states onto animals. We take a likewise conservative stance regarding children, not accepting the argument that young children may not realize what is happening and thus may not be traumatized by it. It seems generally agreed that, at least in the case of children (if not animals), even a buried memory will be a source of trauma – will leave psychological scars – even when the traumatic nature of the experience was not – or, perhaps, could not-- be fully experienced in the moment.

But an important reality of the matter that most people – regardless of their religious beliefs or moral orientation – simply are not attracted, sexually, to animals or to children, and most even feel a certain visceral disgust at the very idea of it, a disgust which may indeed be “natural” to them and not merely socially conditioned. The same goes, for that matter, for homosexuality – the majority of individuals seemingly do not struggle with homosexual desires, and many – indeed – experience a certain visceral distaste at the idea (just as many homosexuals have reported experiencing a visceral distaste, if not disgust, at the idea of sexual relations with those not of their own gender; though the complexity is that many experience a certain visceral disgust, or at least ambivalence, regarding sexuality, period, like those who feel sickened at the sight of public displays of affection).

But the moral question becomes, for the minority that does desire what most of us do not desire – and what most of us, frankly, would view with varying degrees of distaste or even revulsion – is, “it morally permissible?” And that’s where the notion of consent enters in – a loaded term which, as mentioned, implies rape and, presumably, great psychological suffering (humiliation, mental confusion, sadness and depression) and, of course, potentially non-consensual physical suffering, as well (alas, with animals and children, there is often the factor of unwanted grave bodily harm, as well).

Regarding the disgust itself, a believer might say that the disgust is there – for example, regarding bestiality – precisely because such behavior is unnatural, and immoral. Some may even say that God wired us that way, to clue us in that there is something wrong there (though this notion is ultimately unsatisfactory, since a homosexual with a disgust for heterosexual sex would be considered to have the “wrong” desire – thus, intrinsic desire would not be a clue in his case – and a desire not to hug a leper, who may have running sores or a foul odor, would not be considered a clue that hugging a leper is “unnatural” and, therefore, immoral).

A non-believer likely would say that the disgust is there because such desires have a zero-sum value - or even negative value-- from an evolutionary standpoint (non-reproductive sex serves no evolutionary purpose). But they would, nonetheless, not ascribe to that sense of visceral disgust – or even to the idea that a certain behavior, such as non-reproductive sex, serves no evolutionary purpose – a moral significance (though saying non-reproductive sex serves no evolutionary purpose is itself debatable, as it is assuming that the purpose must be of a specific reproductive nature and cannot be of a psychological or social – or of a more diffuse – nature).
 
I think for many non-believers – as regards both pedophilia and bestiality – there’s the notion that, insofar as these actions constitute non-consensual sex – really a euphemism for rape – they are inflicting some form of psychological damage or trauma on the recipient.
I agree; that is why consent is valued and treated as a necessary and sufficient condition for moral sex (by some nonbelievers). That comports with the point I was making, namely that pedophilia is wrong instrumentally for someone who uses a consent criterion. If pedophilia does not result in trauma, for instance, it might not be considered immoral (or it would be immoral in the sense that it was risky and could have caused trauma). Hence Richard Dawkins says that pedophilia is not always bad because when he was touched by a teacher it did not leave a lasting impression on him.
But the moral question becomes, for the minority that does desire what most of us do not desire – and what most of us, frankly, would view with varying degrees of distaste or even revulsion – is, “it morally permissible?” And that’s where the notion of consent enters in – a loaded term which, as mentioned, implies rape and, presumably, great psychological suffering (humiliation, mental confusion, sadness and depression) and, of course, potentially non-consensual physical suffering, as well (alas, with animals and children, there is often the factor of unwanted grave bodily harm, as well).
Right, this is where the believer and nonbeliever diverge. The believer holds consent to be a necessary condition, the nonbeliever necessary and sufficient.
Regarding the disgust itself, a believer might say that the disgust is there – for example, regarding bestiality – precisely because such behavior is unnatural, and immoral. Some may even say that God wired us that way, to clue us in that there is something wrong there (though this notion is ultimately unsatisfactory, since a homosexual with a disgust for heterosexual sex would be considered to have the “wrong” desire – thus, intrinsic desire would not be a clue in his case – and a desire not to hug a leper, who may have running sores or a foul odor, would not be considered a clue that hugging a leper is “unnatural” and, therefore, immoral).
A desire is a defeasible indicator. As your leper case makes obvious, we could not sculpt proper moral behaviors if we relied on desire alone as a guide. (This is why moral epistemology rests in large part on authority.)

And ultimately, disgust is irrelevant in assessing permissibility of any act. I think the emphasis on disgust is why many Christians are genuinely homophobic. I also suspect it is why many Protestant denominations have fallen so quickly on the issue of homosexuality, a paradigm case being when a pastor’s son comes out to him. If one bases the moral case against impermissible forms of sexual activity on disgust, then the case falls apart when behaviors are normalized or the emotion is substituted for some other. I have never found homosexuality particularly disgusting because I used to be a liberal and I have stranger desires.
 
Not entirely different. People often agree about moral conclusions; I conceded that in my first post. My point then and now is that people disagree about moral principles. A Christian believes that murder is wrong because humans are uniquely valuable rational creatures created in the image and likeness of God. For nonbelievers, it is much more instrumental; murder is bad because it deprives someone of some goods (and perhaps because there would be bad consequences if everyone deprived others of some good). And these differences in principle do show in practice: euthanasia, abortion, etc.

The other example I gave was pedophilia. For a Christian, a child is an inherently pre-sexual creature, and engaging in intercourse with someone whose end is not to have sex (to say nothing of the lack of a proper marriage context) is intrinsically immoral. For many nonbelievers (though I don’t want to generalize here), consent is a necessary and sufficient condition for moral intercourse, so pedophilia is wrong not intrinsically but contingently, because children are deemed unable to give consent. (Or bestiality: animals are deemed unable to give consent. We regularly use animals for food, labor, and companionship against their consent however, so it is unclear why consent alone should bar us from using them for sex. The reason we should not engage them in intercourse is rather that it is in intrinsic opposition to our natural ends as humans and theirs as non-humans.)

I do not concede that people agree on morality if they hold some of the same conclusions.

I agree with Paul. But that the law is written on our hearts and that someone of good will can naturally uncover moral principles from an investigation into his own nature* is not to say that in practice there is agreement on moral principles.

*That said, this might be taken generally in tension with Protestantism, which is why there have been relatively few Protestant natural lawyers. J. Budziszewski was a Protestant who started developing natural law theory–until he converted.

I was not aware that Protestants viewed themselves this way. But I still don’t find the argument demonstrative.

However, if you do find it convincing, I would happily welcome you into the Catholic fold. :highprayer:
Our differences might be more semantic than anything else. What I am calling “underlying moral principles” you are calling “conclusions”. No one disputes that what you are calling “moral principles” differs from society to society. What is important for the sake of the argument is how amazing it is that the “conclusions” tend to be the same despite how we arrive at that point. These “conclusions” that we all have in common are what Paul calls the law written on our heart.

Perhaps dialog would be more fruitful if we changed premise 3 to

“Universal agreement of underlying moral CONCLUSIONS is a sure indication as to what Gods moral Law is”

Keep in mind that for an argument to be successful, its premises only need to be more plausible than their negations/contradictories.For a protestant to deny 3 he would need to show that there are numerous moral conclusions that are held universally (or near universally) that contradict divine revelation. This will be difficult because 1. There are no such examples and 2. his demonstration would then contradict the teachings of Paul in Romans 2.
 
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