Does the subconscious violate God's plan to give us free will?

[WannabeSaint]

It is said that God cannot force us to do anything against our will.

If that’s the case, why would he create a subconscious in man that dictate certain actions and behaviors of man which they cannot control? Such as instincts hardwired into us.

 

[JGD]

Give some examples of hardwire instincts that would not serve for our protection - when the situation requires an action instantly without time to think about how one should react. If you can’t think of any, then you have the answer to your “why”.

 

[EloyCraft]

St Paul says it’s because we have a body that inherited death.

Romans 7

The Inner Conflict​

14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin.[c] 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[1Lord1Faith]

why would he create a subconscious in man that dictate certain actions and behaviors of man which they cannot control?

Like sleepwalking or psychosis? Or do you mean something on a more conscious level like a fear of falling or OCD?

 

[John_Martin]

“Sub-conscious” is a materialistic concept developed to answer for intelligible human activities that were not consciously foreknown yet enacted anyway.
It is the materialist’s replacement for “soul” since he cannot admit there be spiritual reality (intellectual animating material).

The body, including the brain in thoughts, memory, imaginations, - the body is a moved object, passive to the agency of the soul.
We observe our bodies move but do not by our brains do the moving. It is the non-material soul moving me materially so you and I know my soul, immaterial though it is.

 

[WannabeSaint]

Give some examples of hardwire instincts that would not serve for our protection - when the situation requires an action instantly without time to think about how one should react.

My hand touches a hot stove. Without making a choice,my hand jolts off the stove instead of me deciding on my own whether to keep it there or not.

 

[JGD]

JGD:

Give some examples of hardwire instincts that would not serve for our protection - when the situation requires an action instantly without time to think about how one should react.

My hand touches a hot stove. Without making a choice,my hand jolts off the stove instead of me deciding on my own whether to keep it there or not.

That serves for your protection. I asked for examples that don’t serve for your protection.

 

[WannabeSaint]

That serves for your protection. I asked for examples that don’t serve for your protection

It doesnt matter whether if it’s for our protection or not. The person wasn’t given the choice to protect their body or let it suffer in that moment. The person could be a masochist or perhaps even suicidal and would keep the hand on if given the choice at that moment.

 

[Vico]

It is said that God cannot force us to do anything against our will.

If that’s the case, why would he create a subconscious in man that dictate certain actions and behaviors of man which they cannot control? Such as instincts hardwired into us.

Free will given to rational beings is freedom of moral choice, not of literally anything.

 

[JGD]

JGD:

That serves for your protection. I asked for examples that don’t serve for your protection

It doesnt matter whether if it’s for our protection or not. The person wasn’t given the choice to protect their body or let it suffer in that moment. The person could be a masochist or perhaps even suicidal and would keep the hand on if given the choice at that moment.

Precisely. It happens to protect us from serious burn without time to think, make a choice,… That’s why it would be considered a “hardwire INSTINCT”.
My first post asked for examples that didn’t serve to protect us - and if you couldn’t find any that weren’t for that good, you’d have your answer as to why God made us that way – in other words, God hardwired them into us for our protection.

Can you give me an example of a hardwired instinct that doesn’t in some way serve as a protection, or good,for us?

 

[WannabeSaint]

That may explain instincts, but it still doesn’t explain other subconscious activities such as sleepwalking, subconscious thoughts, dictating our emotions, dictating what we are attracted to, dictating how we portray others, etc.

 

[WannabeSaint]

Sub-conscious” is a materialistic concept developed to answer for intelligible human activities that were not consciously foreknown yet enacted anyway.
It is the materialist’s replacement for “soul” since he cannot admit there be spiritual reality (intellectual animating material).

The body, including the brain in thoughts, memory, imaginations, - the body is a moved object, passive to the agency of the soul.
We observe our bodies move but do not by our brains do the moving. It is the non-material soul moving me materially so you and I know my soul, immaterial though it is

So does this mean our “sub-conscious” actions really are performed consciously by us. It just appears they weren’t?

 

[John_Martin]

So does this mean our “sub-conscious” actions really are performed consciously by us. It just appears they weren’t?

Well, they are performed in the snapshots of the “now”, and we are after the fact of the “nows”, in our conscious viewing of the “already past ‘now’ stream” of apprehension, seeing in memory what our will has done with its body and what the will is doing with its body in thinking the thoughts about what the body (actions and thoughts) is moved to do.
We notice ALL that we do after it is already done, and we may think about what we would want to do before it were done, but in the “now” of doing, we have no conscious nor unconscious action - only the will is knowing enough, desiring enough, and fast enough to know how to form the body (inform the body) in each snapshot known as “now” and there are an infinite number of snapshots that we could never consciously notice nor direct.

Our thought is fast, such that we think we are doing things when we notice them seemingly happen at the same time we are thinking about them, but the most we can do with our consciousness is desire that some immanent “future” movement be a specific movement ("my nose itches; I will scratch it - future intention), and then we notice our hand rise and fingernail scratch. We desire (see future streams of act) and we notice it happening (past stream seen as a unit, not snapshots of ‘now’).

 

[BT3241]

It hard wired in - there is even a back door - its called hypnotism.

 

[rdj69]

My hand touches a hot stove. Without making a choice,my hand jolts off the stove instead of me deciding on my own whether to keep it there or not

That’s an automatic reflex, not a result of a subconscious decision.

 

[Freddy]

WannabeSaint:

My hand touches a hot stove. Without making a choice,my hand jolts off the stove instead of me deciding on my own whether to keep it there or not

That’s an automatic reflex, not a result of a subconscious decision.

I would suggest that decisions are, by definition, only made consciously. Our subconscious deals with the more automatic responses to external stimulii. Which can cause problems -such as being sexually attracted to someone. Might be helpful not to have that as part of the design.