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La_Chiara
Guest
Some of the discussion would seem to be getting off the topic of this thread. You should probably start a new thread if you want to discuss paganism, wicca, and other.
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chrisb
Guest
Peace be with Exporter,
I hope you don’t mind me answering this question to Heathen Dawn but I have spent the last 3 years in ecumenical dialog with Muslims and feel that I can answer this question with some depth, friend.
First, let me say that if you are interested in greater understanding of Islam it is always wiser to go to the source of knowledge which is the foundation of Islamic Revelation, al Qur’an (The Recitation). If you are unable to read Arabic referencing a translation (i.e. Qur’aan) is the next best thing. If neither of these are to your liking I would humbly suggest that you meet with an Imam at a local Masjid (mosque) after Friday Jummah (sermon) and ask your questions. The average Imam would be capable of answering your inquiries with a depth that is simply not going to be had by asking someone who has simply read a Qur’aan. No disrespect intended Heathen Dawn.
Assuming that you don’t wish to engage in any depth the question you put forth I will attempt to offer you what I know but I still suggest that you seek out learned representatives of the Islamic faith if you wish objective and unbiased answers to your inquiries.
Okay, with regards to your first question. Why do Muslims write about Jesus Christ, know that he lived and say he was a holy man, yet some say Jesus was half-man and half-deity. Let me just say that they know about Jesus, whom they call the Prophet Isa (pbuh), because he appears within their Holy Scripture given to them by their Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who delivered revelation to them from God (Allah) through His Messenger (the Angel Gabriel). Their Prophet (pbuh) was very clear about errors which had crept into past Scriptures that were to be corrected by his coming. This is the general foundation for the whole Islamic Religion and why it was necessary for God (Allah) to send once again another Prophet to preach the Word of God. I have never heard any Muslims conjecture that the Prophet Isa (Jesus Christ) was anything other than a Prophet of God. It is common for Muslims to state that Jesus was no more divine through the virgin birth than Adam was divine by his birth without any parents. It is the claim of Muslims that Christians have deified a Prophet and depending which group you speak with would determine the amount of offense the Christian Claim has on them. Sunni’s are typically more offended than Shia and Sufis are rarely offended as they are informed by Hindu Metaphysics which claim that we are each God and that Jesus’ claims was nothing new. The Muslim interpretation of Christian Scripture is very similar to that of Jews or JW. They are informed by another “error” which we practice and that is the notion of the “Trinity” which they find blasphemous to their notion of Thawid (i.e .the Oneness of God).
If you have further questions, I would gladly answer them as I have heard just about every form of debate under the sun with regard to Islam.
May God bring us greater insight and understanding. Amen.
Peace, Love and Blessings,
E
Exporter
Guest
Don’t take this wrong ( you secluded quiet types).
I enjoy a healthy back-and-forth discussion, a clashig of ideas. I think it’s just fine as long as both parties “read” the others posts.
One can try to explain without being a boor. But, hey, some of us are red bloodied Americans who say it like it is. We are also red bloodied Catholics who defend the faith too. IMO all is fair except namecalling.:clapping:
I enjoy a healthy back-and-forth discussion, a clashig of ideas. I think it’s just fine as long as both parties “read” the others posts.
One can try to explain without being a boor. But, hey, some of us are red bloodied Americans who say it like it is. We are also red bloodied Catholics who defend the faith too. IMO all is fair except namecalling.:clapping:
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jimmy
Guest
I would love this debate, although I do not know as much about Judaism, so I probably wouldn’t be able to debate very well.Hi all!
Jimmy posted:
What about debates with orthodox Jews (who are very interested in interfaith dialogue with Catholics)?
Be well!
ssv
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jimmy
Guest
I would enjoy learning about your faith.Hi all!
Jimmy posted:
What about debates with orthodox Jews (who are very interested in interfaith dialogue with Catholics)?
Be well!
ssv
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Exporter
Guest
You say it’s too quiet here?
Maybe the moderators have cooled things down. I had a note from a moderator to change my “tone”. That I may upset some non-Catholic was not PC.
I told them to go to Walmart, pay $9.00 for a Catechism, go home and read it . Then come back with a question that could be answered. And that was too "loud? SHHHhhhhh, be quiet!:tsktsk:
Maybe the moderators have cooled things down. I had a note from a moderator to change my “tone”. That I may upset some non-Catholic was not PC.
I told them to go to Walmart, pay $9.00 for a Catechism, go home and read it . Then come back with a question that could be answered. And that was too "loud? SHHHhhhhh, be quiet!:tsktsk:
About flames. I like cordial discussions, and I enjoy my fair share of defending the faith. But I have absolutely no tolerance for people who rush in, call us names and just as quickly disappear. I rarely use colored text and large fonts, but I put out two nasty flames at some bloke who called us devil worshipers outright (in the Jesus’ DNA thread).
I think a good fllame or two at times is needed to get people to know that we won’t be walked on.
I think a good fllame or two at times is needed to get people to know that we won’t be walked on.
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Heathen_Dawn
Guest
I can’t speak for them all, but I think a great many Wiccans consider Christianity self-refuting because it talks about a God of Love and eternal torment in hell at the same time.
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chrisb
Guest
Heathen Dawn:
May God bring us greater insight and understanding. Amen.
So from your post you appear to suggest that Wicca doesn’t require it’s practitioners to adhere to any form of ultimate responsibility for their earthly actions?
As I understand it, “hell” is not a “place” created by Our Father to punish those who reject His Grace and Guidance but the eventual outcome of one who does; thus it (being hell) is a “state of being” (that being the absence of the presence of God) created by the rejector “not” the rejected.
As a Contemplative I sincerely recognize the struggle with the baser understandings of these very complex topics but you must recognize that many of us learned and then rejected Christianity at an age when we were simply incapable of grasping the depth of the message any deeper than these very crude explanations.
Sure the idea of a Loving God tossing his followers into a burning pit is difficult to accept even for me but this is the most crude of descriptions one can offer to explain the metaphysical doctrine of the Judeo-Christian ethic that base behavior and the abuse of the life we are given deafen us to experiencing the more rewarding subtleties of our existence in union with one another and with our creator. Now I wouldn’t suggest that others, haven’t gleaned this message in different cultures at different times but, as a Catholic Christian, I would suggest that in Christ it has gained the clearest expression. You are free to point that this is simply an exercise of my own bias but I would also be free to point out that I have a very rich and unbroken tradition that suggests otherwise. In a way, it is unfortunate that we are exposed to Christianity as such tender ages and through such crude teachings but those “crude teachings” do plant the “seeds” of greater insights as we grow in maturity and depth of understanding them, if we pursue further than the cursory didactic arguments and debates we as infants of the faith are so frequent to do. One could argue that this is the inevitable outcome of a culture that has taken all religious knowledge and simply assumed it to be literal and shallow “facts” instead of analogy and deep “wisdom”. The later takes much more time to cultivate rather than the grasping of crude ideas which actually are merely fingers pointing at the truth further away. At this point, I ramble a bit but allow me to add that much of what we think we know about our spirituality is simply the sail and rigging of our faith. Without taking it out to sea, we experience nothing of the Grace of our Lord. So don’t overly criticize those who waste their time scurrying about the shore, for you never know when they will put out to sea and sail away into the deep mysteries of life to their own salvation.
May God illuminate these great mysteries and bring us all into union with one another and with Him. Amen.
Peace, Love and Blessings,
Peace be with you Heathen Dawn,
May God bring us greater insight and understanding. Amen.
So from your post you appear to suggest that Wicca doesn’t require it’s practitioners to adhere to any form of ultimate responsibility for their earthly actions?
As I understand it, “hell” is not a “place” created by Our Father to punish those who reject His Grace and Guidance but the eventual outcome of one who does; thus it (being hell) is a “state of being” (that being the absence of the presence of God) created by the rejector “not” the rejected.
As a Contemplative I sincerely recognize the struggle with the baser understandings of these very complex topics but you must recognize that many of us learned and then rejected Christianity at an age when we were simply incapable of grasping the depth of the message any deeper than these very crude explanations.
Sure the idea of a Loving God tossing his followers into a burning pit is difficult to accept even for me but this is the most crude of descriptions one can offer to explain the metaphysical doctrine of the Judeo-Christian ethic that base behavior and the abuse of the life we are given deafen us to experiencing the more rewarding subtleties of our existence in union with one another and with our creator. Now I wouldn’t suggest that others, haven’t gleaned this message in different cultures at different times but, as a Catholic Christian, I would suggest that in Christ it has gained the clearest expression. You are free to point that this is simply an exercise of my own bias but I would also be free to point out that I have a very rich and unbroken tradition that suggests otherwise. In a way, it is unfortunate that we are exposed to Christianity as such tender ages and through such crude teachings but those “crude teachings” do plant the “seeds” of greater insights as we grow in maturity and depth of understanding them, if we pursue further than the cursory didactic arguments and debates we as infants of the faith are so frequent to do. One could argue that this is the inevitable outcome of a culture that has taken all religious knowledge and simply assumed it to be literal and shallow “facts” instead of analogy and deep “wisdom”. The later takes much more time to cultivate rather than the grasping of crude ideas which actually are merely fingers pointing at the truth further away. At this point, I ramble a bit but allow me to add that much of what we think we know about our spirituality is simply the sail and rigging of our faith. Without taking it out to sea, we experience nothing of the Grace of our Lord. So don’t overly criticize those who waste their time scurrying about the shore, for you never know when they will put out to sea and sail away into the deep mysteries of life to their own salvation.
May God illuminate these great mysteries and bring us all into union with one another and with Him. Amen.
Peace, Love and Blessings,
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