Dorothy Day's Pacifism

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I’m a big fan of Dorothy Day and the great lengths she went to to help the poor and the marginalized. However, she was also an outspoken pacifist, and I don’t see how this fits in with Catholic teaching. Is Just War Theory an area where Catholics may have a legitimate diversity of opinion (like capital punishment for example)? Or was Dorothy Day a pacifist as personal calling or something like that? Or was she just not faithful to the Church on this issue? That last one is troubling to me.
 
Questions like these generally come down to moral obligations.

The early Church had the luxury of persecution to no end without reservation, but as empires and nations converted, they realized that such a luxury was no longer permitted, which is why we have the Just War Criterion.

It might be fair to say that Dorothy Day didn’t have a moral obligation to be such a pacifist, and thus could be argued she went above what Catholic morality would require.

On issues like capital punishment, there really should not be a great diversity of opinion. Unfortunately, there are on these kinds of issues and a lot of it has to do with one’s personal selfishness. The Church teaching is pretty clear: That capital punishment is okay as an extreme means of punishment, but there’s no real reason for it in the First World and saving expense of feeding prisoners is not a good reason for it.
 
Jmd96 said:
I’m a big fan of Dorothy Day and the great lengths she went to to help the poor and the marginalized. However, she was also an outspoken pacifist, and I don’t see how this fits in with Catholic teaching. Is Just War Theory an area where Catholics may have a legitimate diversity of opinion (like capital punishment for example)? Or was Dorothy Day a pacifist as personal calling or something like that? Or was she just not faithful to the Church on this issue? That last one is troubling to me.
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The Catechism has this to say against:
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
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I know nothing of Dorothy Day, so I only address the church teaching. A pacifist may have a duty in certain extraordinary circumstances to save the innocent lives of others (self included, but that’s a bit of a distractor). I think there’s wiggle room to argue the point, if that’s what you’re looking for, but I find it hard to credit any argument that would condone the death of innocents if a bystander could simply have used means (say, a loaded gun preceded by warnings) to detain the wrongdoer. Therefore, an absolute pacifist would seem to me to be in contradiction to church teaching, though subjective guilt may be minimal. I am certainly not claiming Dorothy Day had that position; in fact, I doubt it, but hopefully this gives you some tools to solve that question for yourself. Short of an absolutist position, I think you have the wiggle room to not worry about the question unless you’re actively postulating for her cause for sainthood.
 
Jmd96 said:
I’m a big fan of Dorothy Day and the great lengths she went to to help the poor and the marginalized. However, she was also an outspoken pacifist, and I don’t see how this fits in with Catholic teaching. Is Just War Theory an area where Catholics may have a legitimate diversity of opinion (like capital punishment for example)? Or was Dorothy Day a pacifist as personal calling or something like that? Or was she just not faithful to the Church on this issue? That last one is troubling to me.
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I don’t think Dorothy Day was inherently opposed to the doctrine of just war. She just thought that modern conditions made it nearly impossible to fulfill the third condition of just warfare, which is that the use of arms must not produce evils greater than the evil to be eliminated.

She wrote: “Theologians have laid down conditions for a just war (Monsignor Barry O’Toole is writing on these conditions in the last eight issues), and many modern writers, clerical and lay, hold that these conditions are impossible of fulfillment in these present times of bombardment of civilians, open cities, the use of poison gas, etc.” (source)

From this, it appears to me that she did not deny that a just war is possible in toto, she just thought that current conditions made it impossible for right now. I don’t think that prudential assessment is incompatible with Catholic theology.
 
Ask WWJD, he (Jesus) was the greatest and truest pacifist. Peace and Love.
 
theCrow said:
Ask WWJD, he (Jesus) was the greatest and truest pacifist. Peace and Love.
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The “greatest and truest pacifist” said, “I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.” (Revelation 2:16)

The Bible says about Him: “Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.” (Revelation 19:11)

Pacifism is a heresy, and Jesus was no pacifist.
 
Dorothy Day was a communist, allied with those seeking world atheistic domination through slaughter beyond anything in world history. May we never forget. Forgive if you can.
 
dmar198 said:
The “greatest and truest pacifist” said, “I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.” (Revelation 2:16)

The Bible says about Him: “Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.” (Revelation 19:11)

Pacifism is a heresy, and Jesus was no pacifist.
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I disagree friend. Jesus is the “Prince of Peace” and yes he was a pacifist.

He instructs us to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19), turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39), as well as the command, “you shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). After all, we are told that God is love (1 John 4:16) and “Blessed are the peacemakers” (Matthew 5:9). The Bible also says in 2 Corinthians 10:4, “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world.
 
theCrow said:
I disagree friend. Jesus is the “Prince of Peace” and yes he was a pacifist.
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Perhaps we are operating under different definitions of pacifism. If by “pacifism” you mean the attitude that war is evil and we should do everything we can to avoid it, I agree with that provided one thing is conceded: the use of arms to defend yourself against an unjust aggressor is legitimate when no other option is able to secure your rights.

I think the passages you quoted fit into that attitude, don’t you? But how do you explain passages like these:

“[The ruler] does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.” Romans 13:4

“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Revelation 19:11

“And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8

“[There is] a time for war, and a time for peace.” Ecclesiastes 3:8

“But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.” Luke 22:36

If just war is impossible, how do you reconcile these passages with the ones you quoted?
 
I like what she wrote in US Catholic Worker Newspaper in a
column in 1945! She was WELL AHEAD of her time.
She wrote against Social security then coming out in
Great Britain and called it compulsory
taxation for the poor and sop thrown to the proletariat!
 
Jmd96 said:
I’m a big fan of Dorothy Day and the great lengths she went to to help the poor and the marginalized. However, she was also an outspoken pacifist, and I don’t see how this fits in with Catholic teaching. Is Just War Theory an area where Catholics may have a legitimate diversity of opinion (like capital punishment for example)? Or was Dorothy Day a pacifist as personal calling or something like that? Or was she just not faithful to the Church on this issue? That last one is troubling to me.
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Weller2 posted this link the other day and I saved it:

archive.lewrockwell.com/orig6/zabelka1.html

It’s a beautiful, poignant article, and well worth everyone’s time to read. One thing I know for certain is this, Dorothy Day would have been drawn to this article like a moth to a flame.
 
theCrow said:
I disagree friend. Jesus is the “Prince of Peace” and yes he was a pacifist.

He instructs us to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19), turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39), as well as the command, “you shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). After all, we are told that God is love (1 John 4:16) and “Blessed are the peacemakers” (Matthew 5:9). The Bible also says in 2 Corinthians 10:4, “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world.
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Dead on… Don’t forget turn the other cheek
 
dmar198 said:
Dorothy Day wrote against Communism and violence. Perhaps you would like this article about her: “The Dorothy Day Few of Us Know” by Crisis Magazine.
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Dorothy Day rejected the communism of her youth and adopted in its place a strong and unambiguous Christian Personalism of Emmanuel Mounier and the Christian Humanism of Jacques Maritain. The Catholic Worker communities of today still shine brightly with this personalism.

Charles White
On Christian Community and the Catholic Worker Movement
 
Dorothy Day is a modern Catholic hero, and an inspiration.

As far as the problem of pacifism, I think that it is quite possible to be a pacifist and be a Catholic. It of course depends on what one understands by the term “pacifism.” Just war theory is just that: a theory. It’s dimensions and criteria are validly debated and analyzed by all manner of philosophers and statesmen.

In this sense, I think it’s similar to the death penalty. The Church instructs us that there are times when the death penalty may be properly executed (no pun intended…well, yes, maybe it was). The Church also instructs us that a just war may be properly waged.

But when? Dorothy Day, like many of us in our view of capital punishment, seemed to accept that just war is possible…in theory. But in practice? Almost never.
Theologians have laid down conditions for a just war (Monsignor Barry O’Toole is writing on these conditions in the last eight issues), and many modern writers, clerical and lay, hold that these conditions are impossible of fulfillment in these present times of bombardment of civilians, open cities, the use of poison gas, etc. Fr. Stratmann, in his book, The Church and War, speaks of how “many fervent Catholics are awaiting a moral definition about war, for a decisive word as to its immorality…That the Church should forbid war belongs to those things of which our Lord says: ‘I have many things to say unto you but you cannot hear them now’.” And how agonizingly true is it when we consider the millions in Europe and China defending with their lives and at untold suffering, believing it the only way their country, their families, their institution and their Faith.
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🤷 Take it for what you will.
 
Jmd96 said:
I’m a big fan of Dorothy Day and the great lengths she went to to help the poor and the marginalized. However, she was also an outspoken pacifist, and I don’t see how this fits in with Catholic teaching. Is Just War Theory an area where Catholics may have a legitimate diversity of opinion (like capital punishment for example)? Or was Dorothy Day a pacifist as personal calling or something like that? Or was she just not faithful to the Church on this issue? That last one is troubling to me.
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Christians are pacifists by definition. I don’t believe anyone who is not a pacifist has the right to call themselves Christian. The most they can claim is that they’re trying to be Christian. The Just War theory is the greatest failing of the Catholic Church, but thankfully not all Catholics subscribe to it. This is not an argument that is possible to win, however. Christianity is all about having a change of heart. This rebirth happens through prayer and grace, as well as through reflection upon Christ’s parables in the Gospels. An actual, true, real life Christian doesn’t slaughter his enemies, but instead returns good for evil.
 
Exiled_Child said:
Christians are pacifists by definition. I don’t believe anyone who is not a pacifist has the right to call themselves Christian.
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Does that mean Jesus and St. Paul taught a false Christianity? Where are you getting your “true Christianity” from since Jesus and St. Paul were anti-pacifist?

“[The ruler] does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.” Romans 13:4

“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Revelation 19:11

“And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8

“[There is] a time for war, and a time for peace.” Ecclesiastes 3:8

“But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.” Luke 22:36
 
dmar198 said:
Does that mean Jesus and St. Paul taught a false Christianity? Where are you getting your “true Christianity” from since Jesus and St. Paul were anti-pacifist?

“[The ruler] does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.” Romans 13:4

“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Revelation 19:11

“And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8

“[There is] a time for war, and a time for peace.” Ecclesiastes 3:8

“But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.” Luke 22:36
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Are you saying that Jesus is the Prince of War? That would certainly contradict the truth, that Our Lord is the Prince of Peace! “Blessed are the peacemakers,” He said, “For they shall see God.” The Catechism tells us outright in 2308: “All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.” And then come the exceptions, basically, the theory of a just war. Focusing on the Scripture you quoted above would give the impression that ours is a blood-thirsty faith, when just the opposite is true. Certainly the verses you quoted apply to spiritual warfare, the battle of good versus evil which takes place within each one of us, and are not meant to justify unwarranted aggression against our fellow man.

The pacifism of Dorothy went above and beyond what the Church requires, but it is certainly allowed. Again, from the Catechism 2311: “Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms.” Dorothy Day followed her conscience, as allowed by the Church. You can disagree with her, but you cannot fault her for doing so.
 
dmar198 said:
Does that mean Jesus and St. Paul taught a false Christianity? Where are you getting your “true Christianity” from since Jesus and St. Paul were anti-pacifist?

“[The ruler] does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.” Romans 13:4

“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Revelation 19:11

“And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8

“[There is] a time for war, and a time for peace.” Ecclesiastes 3:8

“But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.” Luke 22:36
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Do you have a good reason for saying Christ wasn’t a pacifist?
 
christofirst said:
The pacifism of Dorothy went above and beyond what the Church requires, but it is certainly allowed. Again, from the Catechism 2311: “Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms.” Dorothy Day followed her conscience, as allowed by the Church. You can disagree with her, but you cannot fault her for doing so.
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I didn’t fault her, if you read earlier in this thread I defended her version of pacifism. But, if I understand the Church’s teaching correctly, there is also a heretical version of pacifism which says that it is never just to wage war. (Dorothy Day, from what I can see, never defended that idea of pacifism, but in fact taught against it.)

It appears to me from Scripture and Tradition that Jesus will wage war and slaughter His enemies, and St. Paul seems to say that the State may do so under the right conditions. Therefore, unless I’ve misunderstood something, it is a heresy to say that it is impossible to wage war justly. The Church has, I think, condemned the heresy of pacifism understood in the sense that the State has no right to armed defense. But it also defends pacifism understood as the belief that aggressive warfare is intrinsically evil.

Do you understand these matters differently, or does that about sum it up for you as well?
 
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