Dressing modestly

[Elphaba]

BlindSheep:

No, only for the past few years.

I am asking these questions in all kindness (it is impossible to read emotions on a post). What made you change to only skirts? You already noted that women in pants are not unfeminine, so why would one have to be “more feminine?” Your level of femininity is not a factor of modesty.

 

[surfinpure]

Elphaba:

I am asking these questions in all kindness (it is impossible to read emotions on a post). What made you change to only skirts? You already noted that women in pants are not unfeminine, so why would one have to be “more feminine?” Your level of femininity is not a factor of modesty.

BlindSheep did mention that pants feel unfeminine on her and aren’t very flattering. Makes sense to me. I don’t have the figure I once did, and many pants I find at the store are dissatisfactory, especially given this current tendency toward very thin fabrics and very low waists. Bleh!

 

[slyboots]

As for high heels…I gave those up a long time ago. I got tired of tripping and falling. I had to give up wearing clogs and slides for the same reasons. I wear flip flops, and birks. But my shoe of choice is a Wolky which is no longer made. Drat the bad luck.
Heels and modesty? I see no contradiction really. I guess some might think drawing attention to one’s feet is too revealing.
Heck I still paint my toenails. No one seems to notice but me thankfully.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

Modeestly is a relative term. What one church considers modest is what another church considers scandalous to wear. Best way to determine is for the person to ask themselves, "am I dressing this way to look my best for worship or to turn heads and look hot and sexy’? Because, if it’s the latter, then you’re taking time meant to commune with God to strut around like a peacock, and that’s disrespectful to God and to others.

 

[BlindSheep]

Elphaba:

I am asking these questions in all kindness (it is impossible to read emotions on a post). What made you change to only skirts? You already noted that women in pants are not unfeminine, so why would one have to be “more feminine?” Your level of femininity is not a factor of modesty.

I can’t tell what is in other women’s hearts and minds when they wear pants. Personally, I feel less feminine when I wear them. I feel as if, for me, it is a symbolic denial of my femaleness, which is how God made me, after all. Skirts feel more like an affirmation of that. I am well aware that it doesn’t mean the same to everyone. It’s like if someone decided to paint their bedroom black as a sign of worshipping satan, and then repainted it white as a physical sign of their conversion back to God; this would be completely unrelated to the action of someone else painting their bedroom black for purely artistic reasons, because they like the way the light plays on the black wall, or because the dark color helps them to sleep. It’s about what pants and skirts mean to me and how I feel in them, more than about any objective quality that they have.
-note-
I am not arguing that nothing is objectively good or evil, and that all morality is relative to the individual. I believe that there are acts that are objectively good and evil (those the Church teaches are), but that even for these, the culpability of the individual depends upon their knowledge and intentions - and I also believe there are other things that are morally neutral, and where the morality of the act depends entirely on the intentions of the person acting. Then again, there are other things which may or may not have some objective moral status, but which the Church is silent on; and in these things I must act in accordance with my own conscience while refraining from passing judgement upon the actions of others.

 

[Elphaba]

BlindSheep:

I must act in accordance with my own conscience while refraining from passing judgement upon the actions of others.

So you know, I do not have a problem with women who only wear skirts. Passing judgement would be wrong because there historically have been and still are cultures in which women in pants is a feminine mode, just as there are cultures in which men in dress-like garments (sarongs) is a masculine mode. Your dress/skirt would not uniquely identify you as a “female” in those countries, but as a Westerner. You would have to adopt a different mode to express your femininity more forcefully if you lived there rather than here.

When God created you in your femaleness, He created you like he did Adam and Eve, without clothing. As for clothing in relation to God, it says:

“And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.” Genesis 3:21

From my understanding there is nothing to indicate that God’s clothing was gender specific. Even in the Chapter 5 where it says, “He created them male and female,” it makes no mention of clothing specifying these identities. I am not trying to argue that gender specific clothing is wrong, only that God did not impose gender standards in clothing, culture and man did. As for cut being the identifier, there are cultures today and in the past in which gender is not identified by the cut of the garment. In the time of Christ (what the Blessed Mother adhered to), it was the color of ones clothing that identified gender. I know a lot of people argue that the Blessed Mother wore robes as the reason that women today should wear only dresses but one has to look at it from the perspective of the time - cut of the garment (there was only one cut for both) did not identify gender to Mary - color did. Obviously, the color standards for gender identification that were in practice then did not survive to European/Western Christianity, as neither did robes. So are we really being like Mary by wearing dresses, or are we simply applying a more current cultural standard in backwards argument to Mary?

Anyhow, I am not saying that you are wrong for only wearing skirts and dresses; but, the fact that pants, to you, symbolically denies your femaleness, stems from something other than God. The universal Church does not teach that pants are immoral or unfeminine (perhaps certain locales did - universally this was not taught). Locale custom cannot become mandated universal custom. The fact the European/Western culture adopted the Eastern mode cannot be deemed immoral; otherwise, the universal Church would automatically condemn Persian Catholic women in history who wore pants.

Did you actually feel less feminine, say 5-10 years ago, when pants were part of your wardrobe? You obviously were not of the mindset that gender was identified by dresses and skirts then. What or who caused the change in your perception about your gender in relation to clothing two years ago?

 

[Jonah]

slyboots:

I am assuming you are female???

I just saw this… LOL and I guess you’re asking because I said, I wear pants and I don’t feel like a man…LOL

You assume correctly

 

[Cathy2]

KCT:

Hello from the US. I can hardly wait to come to Rome for Pentecost! Where in Italy are you?

I live in Nothern Italy. Look at the attachment. These are my favourite shoes for a modest look. I wear them with wide pants and heavy socks. So I can be sure not to appear sexy to anyone.

 

[BlindSheep]

It seems to me that you are either trying to start an argument, psychoanalyse me, or both. I already explained myself; if you feel so compelled to convince me of something I thought I already explained I was aware of, perhaps you should examine your own motivations.

Elphaba:

So you know, I do not have a problem with women who only wear skirts. Passing judgement would be wrong because there historically have been and still are cultures in which women in pants is a feminine mode, just as there are cultures in which men in dress-like garments (sarongs) is a masculine mode. Your dress/skirt would not uniquely identify you as a “female” in those countries, but as a Westerner. You would have to adopt a different mode to express your femininity more forcefully if you lived there rather than here.

When God created you in your femaleness, He created you like he did Adam and Eve, without clothing. As for clothing in relation to God, it says:

“And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.” Genesis 3:21

From my understanding there is nothing to indicate that God’s clothing was gender specific. Even in the Chapter 5 where it says, “He created them male and female,” it makes no mention of clothing specifying these identities. I am not trying to argue that gender specific clothing is wrong, only that God did not impose gender standards in clothing, culture and man did. As for cut being the identifier, there are cultures today and in the past in which gender is not identified by the cut of the garment. In the time of Christ (what the Blessed Mother adhered to), it was the color of ones clothing that identified gender. I know a lot of people argue that the Blessed Mother wore robes as the reason that women today should wear only dresses but one has to look at it from the perspective of the time - cut of the garment (there was only one cut for both) did not identify gender to Mary - color did. Obviously, the color standards for gender identification that were in practice then did not survive to European/Western Christianity, as neither did robes. So are we really being like Mary by wearing dresses, or are we simply applying a more current cultural standard in backwards argument to Mary?

Anyhow, I am not saying that you are wrong for only wearing skirts and dresses; but, the fact that pants, to you, symbolically denies your femaleness, stems from something other than God. The universal Church does not teach that pants are immoral or unfeminine (perhaps certain locales did - universally this was not taught). Locale custom cannot become mandated universal custom. The fact the European/Western culture adopted the Eastern mode cannot be deemed immoral; otherwise, the universal Church would automatically condemn Persian Catholic women in history who wore pants.

Did you actually feel less feminine, say 5-10 years ago, when pants were part of your wardrobe? You obviously were not of the mindset that gender was identified by dresses and skirts then. What or who caused the change in your perception about your gender in relation to clothing two years ago?