Drug Legalization (esp. Marijuana)

[Illmatic15]

Okay, obviously smoking weed recreationally (idk the Church’s teaching on medical use, but I assume they allow it based on what I’ve read in the CCC) and abusing drugs (including alcohol, as in getting drunk) in general is a sin. However, not all sinful things are illegal, as I don’t see anti-lust laws. So what about marijuana legalization, and other drugs as well? I have noticed how Pope Francis has opposed this, but these seem to be his own opinions, and I don’t think he’s made any authoritative statements on the subject (correct me if I’m wrong though). I myself have supported the idea of legalizing pot because I believe drug addicts need rehab, not punishment. However, I’m kind of iffy on legalizing other drugs, because I feel uncomfortable about the idea of seeing stores having sales on crack. However, either way, I feel all drugs should be at least decriminalized, if not legal, because, once again, if someone becomes addicted to or dependent on drugs, he should be sent to rehab, not jail. Before people starts giving cautionary tales on “evil libertarianism”, take a look at this quote from Summa Theologica:

I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in the universe, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evils ensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lest certain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): “If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust.”

You could give some wiggle room to the non-aggression principle here, and if he proposes having prostitution be tolerated, why not drugs?

I also believe that drug dealing in general should be decriminalized, but selling drugs to an addict should certainly be a criminal offense. And since that governments exist to pursue the common good, I could see it being logical to have local anti-drug laws in a place where it has created a bad social epidemic, such as when crack came out in urban areas in the 80s. Subsidiarity should have a prime importance in determining this, as federal drug laws are ridiculous. So give me your thoughts

BQ: unrelated question, but the Augustine quote advocated for prostitution to be tolerated by the authorities. Your thoughts on this?
Pax Christi

 

[CHRISTINE77]

BQ: unrelated question, but the Augustine quote advocated for prostitution to be tolerated by the authorities. Your thoughts on this?
Pax Christi

That is a strange quote! I thought sex outside marriage was a mortal sin.

 

[Illmatic15]

That is a strange quote! I thought sex outside marriage was a mortal sin.

It is a mortal sin. Augustine wasn’t permitting prostitution in a moral sense, he was just saying that the political authorities should tolerate it’s practice. This is why Aquinas was comparing it to unbelievers: their religious rites were sinful, but we still respect their religious freedom.
Peace

 

[GEddie]

If it were currently legal, there would be a case for keeping it so.

But now that it isn’t, legalization would send the social message that it is ok.

Not a good idea IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA

 

[KD8TZC]

I also believe that drug dealing in general should be decriminalized, but selling drugs to an addict should certainly be a criminal offense.

Why do you say that? Couldn’t we say the same thing for those who sell alcohol to alcoholics? I don’t think you can have it both ways.

Personally, I’m not sure where I stand on this. Personally, I don’t think having recreational drugs around is a good thing.

 

[Illmatic15]

Why do you say that? Couldn’t we say the same thing for those who sell alcohol to alcoholics? I don’t think you can have it both ways.

Personally, I’m not sure where I stand on this. Personally, I don’t think having recreational drugs around is a good thing.

Perhaps I should rethink that one. Maybe a better idea would be to make it illegal for people to sell drugs around a rehab center, sorta like how drug dealers get harsher penalties if they sell around schools.
And having recreational drugs isn’t a good thing, but neither is recreational sex, but what are we going to do, lock up fornicators?

@GEddie: it is legal in some places. And cigarettes are legal, but many see them negatively, and I think most parents will continue to instill values in their children that drugs are bad, even if they don’t follow this. My point in legalizing/decriminalizing drugs isn’t really about saying it’s okay, but more about giving citizens their autonomy back.

 

[Antegin]

If it were currently legal, there would be a case for keeping it so.
But now that it isn’t, legalization would send the social message that it is ok.
Not a good idea IMNAAHO.
ICXC NIKA

In Augustine’ day, prostitutes worked for themselves. Yes, it was a sin but they chose it of their own free will. In the Netherlands where prostitution is legal, not only are the women their own bosses, but the state makes sure they work reasonable hours, are protected from abuse and exploitation and have regular medical treatment.

By contrast, in the US, the streets are filled with prostitutes who were ‘‘turned out’’ by boyfriends who got them hooked on dope, or gangs and organized crime who have kidnapped girls and women, used rape, beatings and drugs to compel them to turn tricks. This is the basest slavery, not the prostitution of Augustine’ time.

The marijuana issue is really the same problem. As long as it is illegal, gangs and organized crime will control it. We don’t have to make it available like cigarettes and alcohol. It can be treated like a schedule II drug like Vicodin or Percocet, and Drs would only give it out when medically necessary…

Then again, gangs are looting drug stores for schedule II drugs and selling them on the street. Maybe we should treat marijuana like alcohol.

 

[mikekle]

The simple fact is our Govt does not really care about our health and safety as they claim, if this was true, cigarettes would be banned quicker than I can turn my head, maybe not alcohol, as that can be used in moderation, but smoking, that has ZERO positive uses, Im surprised NOT ONE person has not brought up banning them…??

But when prescription painkillers start killing people left and right, the Govt is very quick to put up new regulations and restrictions…cigarettes continue to kill many people each and every year, but nothing is done??

 

[GEddie]

If pot is legal, today’s pot-smoking youth rebels will become tomorrow’s lifelong pot users.

Nobody should want to see that happen.

ICXC NIKA

 

[edwest2]

Pope Francis has spoken about this.

catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=55886

Just google marijuana rehab. I also suggest visiting this site: asam.org/pressroom/read/2012/07/30/asam-opposes-state-ballot-measures-to-legalize-marijuana

Peace,
Ed

 

[mikekle]

If pot is legal, today’s pot-smoking youth rebels will become tomorrow’s lifelong pot users.

Nobody should want to see that happen.

ICXC NIKA

People are going to smoke pot whether its legal or not, I know quite a few people that have been pot smokers for over 30+ yrs, most do it on the weekends only, none of them are what I would consider addicted though, its just something they enjoy doing when they dont have other responsibilities, many of them have good jobs, kids, and otherwise lead happy lives, pot is not a drug like heroin, cocaine, etc that ruins a persons life, many people keep it under control and are able to maintain the habit.

Im a Huge believer in moderation…ALL drugs can be used in moderation, I even know some people that use Heroin in moderation, they use right before going to work each day, they dont do enough to pass out, or get super high, they use just enough to make them feel good, in fact people like this are a real problem for a city around here, apparently many of these people meet at a certain grocery store parking lot each morning to buy/ use, as its right next to the expressway and right outside city of Cincinnati…yet with all this use going on here, there is no excess in traffic accidents or ambulance calls…??

A local newspaper did an article about this recently the reporter asked the police why there was not an excess of traffic accidents if so many people are using this dangerous drug each morning in this area, the cop did not have an answer for that, said he could not explain that, although he did not want to make the statement, its actually people using in moderation.

 

[exnihilo]

If it were currently legal, there would be a case for keeping it so.

But now that it isn’t, legalization would send the social message that it is ok.

I for one don’t get my moral cues from the modern American state. I would make the counter argument that the continued criminalization actually has negative consequences for the rule of law. The drug war has helped to create the modern police state. It has lead to increased corruption in law enforcement. It has also undermined the authority of the state because the law is so often flaunted.

 

[Illmatic15]

@Antegin: I agree. With a substance being declared illegal, it almost always falls into gangs and the like. And criminalizing prostitution is a relatively recent invention, and I think it’s practice should be tolerated by the state.

@Mikekle: Seriously, cigarettes are worse for your health than weed, even though the Church does say moderate tobacco smoking is morally licit.

@GEddie: a lot of people are gonna get stoned, legal or not

@Edwest2: I have read about this. While we should generally respect what the Pope says, I don’t think he’s actually made any authoritative statements on drug legalization (once again, correct me if I’m wrong). The way it looks to me is that he’s just stating his own opinions, but he’s not really saying anything in the office of pope (correct me if I’m wrong).

@mikekle: great explanation! And i wanna add on to that heroin comment: it seems to me that the MAIN reason why the Church teaches that drunkenness and doing drugs is a sin is because we forsake our reason and our free will by doing this (correct me if I’m wrong). So, if I’m right, would that mean that getting buzzed on certain drugs, but not high, would be morally permissible? Kind of like how it’s not a sin to get a little tipsy when drinking? My logic is that we’re still in control of our reason and free will. After all, I’ve read how Pope Leo XIII used to drink (and even advertise) a certain beverage that mixed alcohol and cocaine.

@exnihilo: I couldn’t agree more, especially about the war on drugs part. Modern America isn’t exactly the best place to set your morals, and I’m opposed to the modern state in general.

 

[SWolf]

If it were currently legal, there would be a case for keeping it so.

But now that it isn’t, legalization would send the social message that it is ok.

Not a good idea IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA

Is that worth the multitudes of non-violent offenders in jail? What message does that send?

 

[on_the_hill]

Im a Huge believer in moderation…ALL drugs can be used in moderation,

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong…wrong.

Heroin and the opioids CANNOT be used safely as recreational drugs. If you are predisposed to addiction, you will be addicted. And there’s no way of knowing your personal risk before you get there, unfortunately.

There are few things in the world of internet forums that will get me upset like the ridiculous claims that illicit drug use is safe. They destroy families. They kill people.

Pretty nearly every thing you’ve ever heard about prescription pain killers, namely, the opioid analgesics, is based on a pack of lies knowingly, willfully, and criminally spread by the manufacturers. There are a number of lawsuits, including a federal criminal suit, against the pharma companies—these guys PAID doctors to prescribe the opioids and PAID them to lie by telling people they’re safe. They even made up the term “pseudo-addiction,” to describe opioid addicts.

It’s irresponsible to claim that recreational use of opioids is safe. Hopefully no one will believe a claim like that. If anyone wants more information from reliable sources, PM me.

In the meantime, take a look at this: pacoroners.org/Uploads/Pennsylvania_State_Coroners_Association_Drug_Report_2014.pdf

and come back and tell me drugs are o.k.

 

[on_the_hill]

many of these people meet at a certain grocery store parking lot each morning to buy/ use, as its right next to the expressway and right outside city of Cincinnati…yet with all this use going on here, there is no excess in traffic accidents or ambulance calls…??

Heroin feeds record number of Ohio drug deaths

From the Ohio Department of Health: healthy.ohio.gov/en/vipp/drug/dpoison.aspx
In 2007, unintentional drug poisoning became the leading cause of injury death in Ohio, surpassing motor vehicle crashes for the first time on record. This trend continued has continued through 2012.

From 2000 to 2012, Ohio’s death rate due to unintentional drug poisonings increased 366 percent, and the increase in deaths has been driven largely by prescription drug overdoses.

In Ohio, there were 411 fatal unintentional drug overdoses in 2000 growing to 1,914 annual deaths in 2012.

On average approximately five people die each day in Ohio due to drug overdose.

 

[mikekle]

If pot is legal, today’s pot-smoking youth rebels will become tomorrow’s lifelong pot users.

Nobody should want to see that happen.

ICXC NIKA

We all saw what happened when they cracked down on prescription painkillers…now instead of pill addicts, all those people simply switched to more readily available Heroin, so that was a HUGE backfire imo.

I mean, what did they expect all the addicts to do once they could not get painkillers anymore, did they really think they would just stop using altogether? LOL If they crack down on one thing, the addicts just move to the next thing…its constant and will never stop, no matter what drug it is.

 

[on_the_hill]

We all saw what happened when they cracked down on prescription painkillers…now instead of pill addicts, all those people simply switched to more readily available Heroin, so that was a HUGE backfire imo.

I mean, what did they expect all the addicts to do once they could not get painkillers anymore, did they really think they would just stop using altogether? LOL If they crack down on one thing, the addicts just move to the next thing…its constant and will never stop, no matter what drug it is.

True. There’s an increase in heroin use when the painkillers aren’t available. Heroin is cheaper, too. The increase lasts for 2 - 3 years.

If we outlaw abortion, people will have them done illegally. So we may as well allow it.

 

[mikekle]

True. There’s an increase in heroin use when the painkillers aren’t available. Heroin is cheaper, too. The increase lasts for 2 - 3 years.

If we outlaw abortion, people will have them done illegally. So we may as well allow it.

Theres also the issue of prison capacities too…if most drugs of abuse were legalized today, this would drastically cut the number of people being sent to FOR PROFIT prisons…prisons are being built all over the place, at a higher rate than schools, so that means, the financial backers of these jails need to ensure they will have a steady supply of ‘clients’ to fill the cells, what better way to ensure this than to keep a popular drug illegal.

The illegal drug trade is perfect for the for prison/ law enforcement industry, it basically guarantees a certain number of people will always be going thru the revolving door, as majority of crime today is drug related, whether its theft, robbery, etc.

Personally, I believe there is a certain amount of collusion between the US Govt and the drug cartels, think about this…POST 9-11 world and yet the cartels are consistently able to get enough product thru the border to keep virtually every city in the US fully supplied 365 days a year!!! Something is not right with that picture, plus you have to consider the level of damage heroin and other drugs are having on the population, this is an invasion of sorts, any other such invasion, the Govt would act very quickly to stop it (the war on terror), yet not too much is done to stop the flow of drugs thru the border, Ive also never hear anyone suggest going after the cartels on their own ground, this would be justified due to the amount of problems drugs are causing.

They know if they suddenly stop the cartels and the drug flow stops, people will no longer have access to the drugs, no more stealing, robbing, if they cant get the drug in the first place…of course that means, no more arrests for such things, much less prisoners. If you think about it, it is pretty clear whats going on.

 

[on_the_hill]

…prisons are being built all over the place, at a higher rate than schools,

I absolutely agree with you about this. We need better schools, not more prisons.

Further, if we funded and provided drug rehab instead of putting people behind bars, the U.S. would save literally $billions annually. That’s been proven and there’s bi-partisan, conservative-liberal, Republican-Democrat agreement on it.

Many jurisdictions are realizing this and are establishing specialized drug courts. Lots of people still go to jail for drug-related crimes, but they can earn a “get out of jail” card if they successfully complete rehab programs. The recidivism rate for these folks is much much lower than it is for addicts who don’t get rehab services while they’re incarcerated.

However, we can’t make it easier for people to get addictive drugs. The pain meds are legal now, and we can’t handle them. Imagine what would happen if the flood gates opened.