Early Church Fathers on Romans 9

[Danyel]

Does the view that Paul is (in Romans 9) defending his Gospel against Jewish objections by explaining that God has never chosen people by flesh but rather by spirit (faith) extend all the way back to the Church Fathers?

If so, which early church father taught it, please?

For further elucidation on the doctrine in question, please view the following link. This is also useful toward a complete overthrow of the Calvinistic dogma of “irresistible grace”, “unconditional election”, “limited atonement” and “perseverance of the saints”.

evangelicalarminians.org/node/286

 

[Danyel]

Does the view that “Paul is (in Romans 9) defending his Gospel against Jewish objections by explaining that God has never chosen people by flesh but rather by spirit (faith)” extend all the way back to the Church Fathers?

If so, which church father taught it, please?

For further elucidation on the doctrine in question, please view the following link (it is also useful toward a complete overthrow of the Calvinistic dogma of “irresistible grace”, “unconditional election”, “limited atonement” and “perseverance of the saints”):

evangelicalarminians.org/node/286

Thanks in advance!

 

[Truthstalker]

I’m rather puzzled as to why you choose to mount an attack on Calvinism in a Catholic apologetics forum, as if there are Calvinists here well equipped to defend it. They are principally on their own websites and will be happy to engage you here.

My understanding is this forum would be better suited for attack/defense of Catholic doctrine, which, to the best of my understanding, Calvinism is not. Perhaps the Non Catholic Religion forum would draw a respectable critique of Calvinism from an Arminian perspective?

I would be interested in someone delineating the differences in the Catholic and Arminian positions.

 

[ahs]

I don’t know much about the topic you posted (and I agree it would be better in the Non-Catholic sub-forum), but I do know that one of the early Church Fathers had a specific comment on Paul’s writings in general. Some of this Early Father’s writings were eventually included in the Canon of Scripture…and here is what he said:

15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Pet 3:15-16)

 

[Danyel]

I’m rather puzzled as to why you choose to mount an attack on Calvinism in a Catholic apologetics forum, as if there are Calvinists here well equipped to defend it. They are principally on their own websites and will be happy to engage you here.

I didn’t mount an attack on Calvinist doctrine; I’m seeking information which might assist me in the overthrow of it (on another website) on this website, because I thought Catholics may be more familiar with some ECFs. If I was wrong, sorry.

Perhaps the Non Catholic Religion forum would draw a respectable critique of Calvinism from an Arminian perspective?

I’m already engaged in a fruitful discussion on the Arminianism & Calvinism board @ forums.carm.org

I would be interested in someone delineating the differences in the Catholic and Arminian positions.

I think Catholicism and Arminianism are similar; in particular, the difference which Arminianism and Catholicism have with Calvinism is that Arminians and Catholics believe grace/salvation can be lost whereas Calvinists do not (they have all kinds of justifications for this, which are false).

 

[mercytruth]

I have a different perspective on ‘election’ than most. The Israelites were ‘elected’ to be the people through whom God revealed the sacred scriptures. The Israelites were ‘elected’ to be the people through whom the Messiah would be born.

The church are those who are chosen to be the light of the world, and the salt of the earth
As I understand it, as the bride of Christ, the church represents the new Eve which will bring about the restoration of the earth when Jesus Christ returns…

So, what about everyone else? Are they damned for eternity? I do not believe they are. They have some prupose in God’s will, and He knows what that is. It will be revealed in the general resurrection of the dead which takes place at some point after the resurrection of the saints when Christ Jesus returns. The DIdache is an early church document which states that there will be two resurrections. I can not imagine everyone who is in the second resurrection will automatically be damned. These are my personal reflections from the early church documents, scarce as they are.

God’s peace be with you

micah

 

[Danyel]

I have a different perspective on ‘election’ than most. The Israelites were ‘elected’ to be the people through whom God revealed the sacred scriptures. The Israelites were ‘elected’ to be the people through whom the Messiah would be born.

The church are those who are chosen to be the light of the world, and the salt of the earth
As I understand it, as the bride of Christ, the church represents the new Eve which will bring about the restoration of the earth when Jesus Christ returns…

So, what about everyone else? Are they damned for eternity? I do not believe they are. They have some prupose in God’s will, and He knows what that is. It will be revealed in the general resurrection of the dead which takes place at some point after the resurrection of the saints when Christ Jesus returns. The DIdache is an early church document which states that there will be two resurrections. I can not imagine everyone who is in the second resurrection will automatically be damned. These are my personal reflections from the early church documents, scarce as they are.

God’s peace be with you

micah

Thx for the info