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arieh0310
Guest
Your posts have become increasingly sardonic. I hope it isn’t a reaction to perceived sarcasm on my part, if so I appologize.
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majick275
Guest
Were LDS ECFs trinitarians? I had never noticed in all these years until now the significance of teh last line of the testimony of the three witnesses in the BoM
*And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
OLIVER COWDERY
DAVID WHITMER
MARTIN HARRIS*
Mormons praying the glory be? This is still in the current BoM so even to “sola scriptura” LDS this is doctrine. How does this reconcile with the current version of the “first vision”?
*And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
OLIVER COWDERY
DAVID WHITMER
MARTIN HARRIS*
Mormons praying the glory be? This is still in the current BoM so even to “sola scriptura” LDS this is doctrine. How does this reconcile with the current version of the “first vision”?
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amgid
Guest
I am amazed! Modern LDS scripture is full of “Trinitarian” expressions, more so than in the Bible!
And now Abinadi said unto them, I would that ye should understand, that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
And because he dwelleth in the flesh he shall be called the Son of God, having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
And thus the flesh becoming subject to the spirit or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to temptation… (Mosiah 15:1–5.)
Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. (Mosiah 16:15.)
…and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God… (Alma 11:44.)
…and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father; and the Father and I are one. (3 Nephi 20:35.)
And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son. (Mormon 9:12.)
Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally. (Ether 3:14.)
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. (D&C 20:28.)
And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;
And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one— (D&C 93:2–3.)
Good question. The cleverest answer to this question that I have yet seen is in this article I found on the Internet. Nothing “official,” I will let you judge it for yourself.
amgid
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majick275
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interesting article. I’ll have to think on it.
Many of your scripture references do not seem to support the Trinity as Catholics understand it. That is why I find this statement by the “three witnesses” so interesting. (it seems to be straight from the nicene creed)
Notice the difference being Father, Son and Holy Ghost = one God vs. Father and Son = one God OR Father and Son and Holy Ghost = one godhead OR Father and Son share one mind which is the Holy Ghost, etc. (many permutations)
Catholic Doctrine is that Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one God.
LDS doctrine (as I understand it) is that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one in “purpose”.
Many of your scripture references do not seem to support the Trinity as Catholics understand it. That is why I find this statement by the “three witnesses” so interesting. (it seems to be straight from the nicene creed)
Notice the difference being Father, Son and Holy Ghost = one God vs. Father and Son = one God OR Father and Son and Holy Ghost = one godhead OR Father and Son share one mind which is the Holy Ghost, etc. (many permutations)
Catholic Doctrine is that Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one God.
LDS doctrine (as I understand it) is that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one in “purpose”.
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amgid
Guest
None of them do! The Bible doesn’t!
The statement by the “three witnesses” diesn’t either!
Now that is silly. You are splitting hairs in order to avoid admitting the truth.
I thought that is what those scriptures I quoted said. I didn’t know my reading skills had deteriorated that bad.
Don’t try to dodge the issue please. We are not discussing “LDS doctrine” says right now. We are discussing what is said in the plain sense of words of the LDS scripture. When we have taken care of that, then we can discuss what “LDS doctrine” says about them.
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majick275
Guest
But the LDS scriptures seem to contradict themselves. The BoM seems to be very orthodox on the trinity. The D&C does not. The PoGP does not and obviously the Bible does.
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arieh0310
Guest
I would say that from the plain sense of the words in LDS scripture that God is one God and also one of many. He is one God in three Persons and also three Gods united only in purpose. He is eternal and had a beginning.
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Rachel_Malloy
Guest
This thread is getting off topic from “Early Church Fathers”…
Let’s get back on track.
Thank you!
Let’s get back on track.
Thank you!
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majick275
Guest
So then I interpret the OP to be a request for discussion on the role of LDS "ECF"s in establishing current doctrine. With an open canon this is a very complex issue. We have so far seen some LDS take the position that his means that LDS ECFs AND current GAs only speak binding doctrine when their words are entered into the “standard works”. Others claim that when they provide exegesis of existing canonized scripture then that is also doctrine. Some “liberal” LDS claim that the current prophet always speaks for the Lord when directing the Church. The Standard works themselves state that whenever they are moved by the Holy Ghost then whatsoever they speak is the word of the Lord. (although SS LDS will claim that the test of this is wether or not these words are added to the canon)
Does this seem an accurate recap?
Does this seem an accurate recap?
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amgid
Guest
They do not.
It is not.
It does.
It does.
It does not.
amgid
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amgid
Guest
LDS have no ECFs.
Why?
I don’t recall anyone making such a statement. I certainly didn’t.
I don’t recall that ether.
Curious! I don’t recall hearing that either.
That subject was adequately discussed by me in another thread.
There is no such thing as SS LDS.
I would say you must have a very low estimate of the intelligence of the people on the board.
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majick275
Guest
It would appear I do not. I wasn’t directing my comments to you, at you or for you. Don’t you have an evangelical “bash board” to spew your hatred at?
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majick275
Guest
Yes they do, you just need to build up your vocabulary so that you understand thease terms and engage in mature conversations.
Because it makes it more difficult to keep up with what is and isn’t scripture, not to mention the changing scriptural exegesis.
I don’t recall anyone making such a statement. I certainly didn’t.
I am speaking to my own personal experience with LDS members, since you weren’t present your comment is meaningless. (imagine that)
I don’t recall that ether.
See above
Curious! I don’t recall hearing that either.
See above. But it has now become obvious to anyone who has read your posts that just like Joseph smith you are as honest as Satan in your attempts to deceive people to join you in wickedness.
That subject was adequately discussed by me in another thread.
Not adequately enolugh for truth seekers. You have no credibility with anyone here.
There is no such thing as SS LDS.
Except that you and many others claim to be.
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