Early Universal Jurisdiction

[catharina]

How is this ‘systematic’?

Seriously now.

Matthew 16:18
“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This statement by Our Lord established the primacy of Peter. Without the primacy - and therefore the successors of Peter - the new Church could not have grown as a continuing entity. I think this is self-evident of a teaching that in its first form established order, system, continuation. Although I’m a 62 yr-old lifelong Roman Catholic, I was simply stunned when newscasters around the world referred to Pope John Paul II at the time of his death as the 263rd successor of St. Peter. Like even THEY get it! That’s really amazing to me.

 

[holdencaulfield]

No doubt you believe as you’ve said - but I as a Roman Catholic accept the teaching that Jesus Christ Alone founded His Church and that He did so upon the rock who is Peter, not upon the duo that is Peter and Paul.

Furthermore since Rome is the place of St. Peter’s martyrdom it is more important.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Matthew 16:18
“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This statement by Our Lord established the primacy of Peter. Without the primacy - and therefore the successors of Peter - the new Church could not have grown as a continuing entity. I think this is self-evident of a teaching that in its first form established order, system, continuation. Although I’m a 62 yr-old lifelong Roman Catholic, I was simply stunned when newscasters around the world referred to Pope John Paul II at the time of his death as the 263rd successor of St. Peter. Like even THEY get it! That’s really amazing to me.

The Orthodox Church however is one entity.

 

[holdencaulfield]

What about Pope Paul VI certainly overstepped the boundaries of the Early Bishop of Rome with the Novus Ordo

 

[catharina]

What about Pope Paul VI certainly overstepped the boundaries of the Early Bishop of Rome with the Novus Ordo

You’re wong, holden. Pope Paul VI had all the power of Peter in making decisions. The kind of claim you’re making puts you on a very slippery slope.

 

[holdencaulfield]

You’re wong, holden. Pope Paul VI had all the power of Peter in making decisions. The kind of claim you’re making puts you on a very slippery slope.

However, didn’t it contradict previous Tradition??? Maybe I’m wrong I’m just trying to strengthen my Catholic Faith.

 

[catharina]

However, didn’t it contradict previous Tradition??? Maybe I’m wrong I’m just trying to strengthen my Catholic Faith.

holden, I don’t know why you have the impression that Peter said Mass in Latin. Do you actually believe he did? Do you actually believe there have been no changes to the way Mass is offered since the days of Peter until Paul VI came along?

In fact, you seem to find yourself in some odd position of “defending” your faith whil you are really still learning the Faith. Do you hang out with strange people? (Seriously, do you?)

 

[holdencaulfield]

holden, I don’t know why you have the impression that Peter said Mass in Latin. Do you actually believe he did? Do you actually believe there have been no changes to the way Mass is offered since the days of Peter until Paul VI came along?

No however the Liturgy was changed.

In fact, you seem to find yourself in some odd position of “defending” your faith whil you are really still learning the Faith. Do you hang out with strange people? (Seriously, do you?)

I don’t know maybe. I am learning and defending yes. I have been on too many Orthodox forums.

 

[catharina]

No however the Liturgy was changed.

I don’t know maybe. I am learning and defending yes. I have been on too many Orthodox forums.

Why would you go on Orthodox forums?
You mean Eastern Orthodox?
You mean “Traditionally orthodox?”

Either way, why would you look for truth among those who promote disagreement/dissension?

It makes me feel so sad for you.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Why would you go on Orthodox forums?
You mean Eastern Orthodox?
You mean “Traditionally orthodox?”

Either way, why would you look for truth among those who promote disagreement/dissension?

It makes me feel so sad for you.

Thank you. I thought it would strengthen my faith not hurt it. I meant Eastern Orthodox forums.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Young Friend,

I almost 'Doxed myself. Well, I never actually asked an Orthodox priest to accept me into the Orthodox Church, but I was fed up with the junk that goes on in the Catholic Church and the laxity in Her that the Orthodox do not tolerate.

But, I remembered the idea of the development of doctrine that Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about. The Orthodox use the development of doctrine without actually claiming it. They talk as if the whole elaborate veneration of Icons dropped right out of the sky after the Ascension, or that the explicit Dogma of the Trinity is spelled out in the book of Philemon. The truth is that our understanding of the Faith is organically growing (not that we can make up or change Dogmas) and to deny it is to engage in some sort of religious archaeology and to remain stagnant.

The development of doctrine espoused by Newman and found throughout Church history is the most logical reason why I am a Catholic. The Papacy was not as it is today, as Steven Ray explains it, neither was a small company in its infancy like a global corporation with a CEO. Universal Jurisdiction doesn’t really come in to play when you got about 144 people in a room waiting for a sign from Heaven.

You see the development when St. Peter decided to replace the position that Judas had, when he baptized the man from Joppa and declaired that the Gentiles do not have to be circumcised before the Council ruled in favor of what he did unilaterally. There are more instances in Scripture and in the history of the Early Church. Our more learned posters can point you in the correct direction.