Earth AND Heaven vs Earth THEN Heaven

[ffg]

Something I’ve noticed lately that might help with a better understanding about Salvation or the ‘Catholic answers’ regarding the subject is to ponder the title here.

Earth AND Heaven, vs Earth THEN Heaven.

What we’ve seen in links in Catholic answers so far include a lot of communication between People who’s primary residence seems to be on either side of the equation.

Be it God in Heaven and Jesus on Earth, Mary on Earth and St. Gabriel in Heaven, Mary in Heaven and the children of Fatima on Earth, The Holy Spirit in Heaven and the Apostles and others on earth at Pentecost, etc…

So when we come to ask ‘why’ Catholic answers include more than a belief with regard to what is important for us on Earth, perhaps to consider Earth AND Heaven, will help with understanding.

For sure there is a journey, but that relates to the fact we live in time and therefore have the opportunity to learn, grow, know, and share until time stops for us.

Because Time exists, doesn’t mean Heaven isn’t accessible now, from a communication and understanding standpoint.

Once we conclude Jesus is who He said He Is, that’s the trigger that should set our lives free to understand we do have the freedom and ability to understand Truth to the point it has been revealed. Obviously, any revealed Truth, if true is communication between Heaven AND Earth.

So, what we have documented in the Bible and other writings are the methods and nature of where our lives need to be that put us in the best position to communicate clearly with those in Heaven currently.

If we are doing what set’s us up with clear communication with Heaven today, that should help provide confidence in hope we have for Heaven as a future residence.

 

[Sam_777]

You know what your post is :whacky:, but what I understand that this cursed earth needs JESUS second coming ASAP to transform it, this earth cannot handle 7 billion people, corruption, racism, adultery, and killing to name a few is everywhere.

 

[ffg]

Thanks for your response.

I wouldn’t expect it to make sense to most people because in general Christians are taught to think of Heaven as a ‘next’.

Thus I appreciate anyone’s effort to ponder, or think about, what could be a fact in that Heaven and Earth are closer together than previously thought.

For instance, We are taught that a key issue in the rejection of God by Lucifer (a free act) was Jesus becoming Human.

And thus Lucifer, if God-loving, would bend a knee to ‘God-Man’ Jesus. A situation in appearance to Lucifer that was unacceptable.

But a situation in principle that shows the importance of Humans to God, Earth to Heaven, there is a closeness there.

God is accessible now, so the next question is how do we get to Him? The argument from this site’s perspective is - the most efficient way is through the Church this site represents. Notice I said most efficient, not only (meant in concept of membership on Earth).

However, if we can conclude that communication absolutely can exist between Heavenly residence and ourselves now - though I have a cell phone, I fumble with the numbers a lot, there must be a white courtesy phone somewhere (A phone with a direct line to assistance, if unfamiliar with courtesy phones).

In this argument - The Catholic Church.

 

[Sam_777]

For instance, We are taught that a key issue in the rejection of God by Lucifer (a free act) was Jesus becoming Human.

And thus Lucifer, if God-loving, would bend a knee to ‘God-Man’ Jesus. A situation in appearance to Lucifer that was unacceptable.

where is the reference for that from the Catholic Church? as far as I know that Lucifer fall was due to his pride per (Isaiah 14:12-14):

• "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.*” .

 

[Alizarin]

where is the reference for that from the Catholic Church? as far as I know that Lucifer fall was due to his pride

I was about to ask the same question. But then I remembered I read that myself in The Mystical City of God, which was a collection of visions from Ven. Mary Agreda. Of course, not official Church teaching, but the idea is out there.

 

[ffg]

where is the reference for that from the Catholic Church? as far as I know that Lucifer fall was due to his pride per (Isaiah 14:12-14):

• "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.*” .

Thanks for your reply.

You just referenced it. The 14th Chapter of Isaiah is a good one, if you carry forward a bit you get to a point where people are basically scratching their heads wondering why someone would do something so dumb as to leave a beautiful place, cause harm, and then be cast into a horrid place.

Let’s think about how and why a creation who is already favored by God would develop the sin of Pride.

How? Unconditional Love from God in creation
God’s love is so great that His creation are not puppets, they have the ability to think and choose.

Why? Because as you referenced, “I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” The act of ascending above clouds (or thinking this is possible)shows there was a beneath the clouds period. The purpose of an angel to be beneath the clouds would be to serve humans (in this case a human - God-Man Jesus)

We all have guardian angels whose purpose is to help us out when we call on them. This particular angel, didn’t want to serve what looked like a ‘lesser’ being. What are we supposed to be doing as Good Humans? Serve the least among us. It’s not much of a stretch to think that Angels have a similar instruction.

Therefore, for Lucifer to get to the point of Pride as you referenced, he would have been informed of Jesus’ activity, fell in line beneath the clouds, and balked when it came time to bend that knee.

All referenced in Isaiah, Chapter 14.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I’m trying to make sure I understand what you’re saying.

If you’re saying that we should use our knowledge of Heaven (of God, of ultimate truth and goodness and beauty) to shape our lives on Earth, and to try to shape our Earth, then I absolutely agree - with the stipulation while we should work towards the goal of shaping Earth to be as much like Heaven as possible, we aren’t actually capable of doing it completely ourselves. The world will have problems until Christ comes, but that shouldn’t stop us from squashing as many as we can.

So yeah, the goal of Christianity is not just to stoically avoid sin until we finally die and good stuff happens. There’s some of that, of course, but that is but a part. We are also to transform the world as much as we can into something better. If this is what you’re saying, then I agree completely. Of course, if I’m missing something, please let me know.

 

[GEddie]

The real difference is that Heaven is eternal and we ( in our natural embodiment) are not.

ICXC NIKA

 

[ffg]

I’m trying to make sure I understand what you’re saying.

If you’re saying that we should use our knowledge of Heaven (of God, of ultimate truth and goodness and beauty) to shape our lives on Earth, and to try to shape our Earth, then I absolutely agree - with the stipulation while we should work towards the goal of shaping Earth to be as much like Heaven as possible, we aren’t actually capable of doing it completely ourselves. The world will have problems until Christ comes, but that shouldn’t stop us from squashing as many as we can.

So yeah, the goal of Christianity is not just to stoically avoid sin until we finally die and good stuff happens. There’s some of that, of course, but that is but a part. We are also to transform the world as much as we can into something better. If this is what you’re saying, then I agree completely. Of course, if I’m missing something, please let me know.

Interesting twist. I was not focussing on the Earth as in, make it a better place to live or more like Heaven. Though I think it’s an interesting discussion where I would contend we are tasked with providing information (revealed Truth) and service to others. The task does not include the great responsibility of ensuring the audience listen or act accordingly.

My focus is simply to consider that our God and friends in Heaven are closer than we think. It seems many times that in our discussions on Salvation and Heaven we are talking as if they are not linked to us on Earth. That they are far away, after our death.

If people recognized the strong link that exists between Heaven and Earth, it will be easier to understand (or ask God in prayer) why our life (and how we live it) on Earth is very important.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Interesting twist. I was not focussing on the Earth as in, make it a better place to live or more like Heaven. Though I think it’s an interesting discussion where I would contend we are tasked with providing information (revealed Truth) and service to others. The task does not include the great responsibility of ensuring the audience listen or act accordingly.

My focus is simply to consider that our God and friends in Heaven are closer than we think. It seems many times that in our discussions on Salvation and Heaven we are talking as if they are not linked to us on Earth. That they are far away, after our death.

If people recognized the strong link that exists between Heaven and Earth, it will be easier to understand (or ask God in prayer) why our life (and how we live it) on Earth is very important.

Ah, I see. I concur.

 

[ffg]

So if we can get to a point where people agree life today is important. We can try hitting the usual debates with this in mind and see if we end up with better understanding of each other and of course, hopefully a better understanding of the Truth.

For instance, we kind of started one above with the Lucifer talk.

I know my life today is very important to God through the logic that God probably has similar instructions for all of his creations, one being ‘serve the least among us’.

If that is an instruction, there are outcomes for two creations, no? We like to look at that statement only from the perspective of the server - Obeying (or not, aka sin) God for the server.

But what the statement does in principle is level the playing field for creation, making the served VERY important.

Angels would view Humans as ‘less’, but God made sure Angels knew Humans were just as important to Him as Angels by becoming Human.

To Angels, Humans create two tests - ‘Serve the least’, and ‘humility (failure here is pride)’ summed up as ‘Hey, don’t look down on any of my creation!’.

Why didn’t God become Angel, when Lucifer fell and do for ‘sinful’ angels what he did (does) for sinful Humans? Certainly he has the power.

The answer might be because Angels were already in the know (God doesn’t undo his creation) and the trigger for the Angelic fall was the test of ‘serve the least’, or in this case specifically, ‘bow to God who took on Human nature’.

So my life directly linked to my life’s work (in thought and deed), is important to God on two fronts, someone already in God’s presence has been tasked to serve me exampled in the fact there are fallen Angels, those too prideful to serve a less. I must be important if God wants to give me help from Heaven.

Then, I must also be important if God wants lowly, sinful, me to take care of those with needs greater than myself.

 

[rinnie]

Interesting twist. I was not focussing on the Earth as in, make it a better place to live or more like Heaven. Though I think it’s an interesting discussion where I would contend we are tasked with providing information (revealed Truth) and service to others. The task does not include the great responsibility of ensuring the audience listen or act accordingly.

My focus is simply to consider that our God and friends in Heaven are closer than we think. It seems many times that in our discussions on Salvation and Heaven we are talking as if they are not linked to us on Earth. That they are far away, after our death.

If people recognized the strong link that exists between Heaven and Earth, it will be easier to understand (or ask God in prayer) why our life (and how we live it) on Earth is very important.

I’m hanging with you Sister. What you are saying is we are Just as CLOSE to God on earth as we will be in HEAVEN.

The only difference is we will see God and be able to speak and understand thing’s more clearly, but that does not mean he is not just as close to us here on earth, without seeing him or understanding things as clear as we could.

 

[ffg]

Certainly. The creator is not far away from that which he loves. But for us to understand from a communication standpoint, this is the case, I think helps.

God may have cast Adam and Eve out of paradise.

He didn’t cast them out of creation.

When the Church teaches that the Church on Earth is ‘Church Militant’, and Church in Heaven is ‘Church Triumphant’.

That’s a pretty strong link that seems to work well in understanding how closely linked Earth and creations activity on it are with Heaven and creations in it.