East West History

  • Thread starter Thread starter mattp0625
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mattp0625

Guest
Some folks in the Orthodox Churches seem to view RCC somewhat negatively, sometimes pointing to the sack of Constantinople by crusaders (as far as I can tell, the Roman Catholic Pope condemned these actions by the soldiers).

These folks also indicate that the Roman bishop was not “first among equals” and that he separated from the eastern bishops (e.g. the Great Schism).

In that light, I would like to more fully understand the apostolic succession of the eastern churches.

I have read that Peter appointed Linus and Clement (e.g. Pope/Bishop of Rome), and may have appointed Ignatius of Antioch as the Bishop of Antioch.

While there are many eastern churches, my understanding there is not a “pope”. What does the succession of bishops look like? For example, I am told the Coptic Church (which does have its own pope) was started by Saint Mark, who was appointed by…Peter?
 
In that light, I would like to more fully understand the apostolic succession of the eastern churches.
Apostolic succession is the continuous succession of bishops traced back to the apostles. This can be to any of the apostles, it does not have to be traced specifically to Peter.
 
Yes, each Apostolic Church can trace either directly to the. Apostles or indirectly thru another Apostolic Church. You would have to search the list of each particular Church to get the full list of all of them.
 
Great thanks. I knew about Saint Ignatius in Antioch appointed by Peter but I wasn’t aware of the other apostles. Some of the other churches seem less certain about succession though.
 
What is the understanding of Ignatius’s relationship with the Bishop of Rome?
 
Great thanks. I knew about Saint Ignatius in Antioch appointed by Peter but I wasn’t aware of the other apostles. Some of the other churches seem less certain about succession though.
None of the Orthodox or Assyrian Churches are uncertain. Maybe you are referring to protestants.
 
What is the understanding of Ignatius’s relationship with the Bishop of Rome?
Depends whom you ask. Oriental Orthodox hold a high Petrine view, Eastern Orthodox are more conciliar; Oriental Catholics hold the high Petrine view, Byzantine Catholics are more conciliar.
 
I read there were various schisms over the topic of succession. Others seemed to have incomplete lists.

I do not think there is any Protestant succession from the apostles
 
I read there were schisms over the topic of succession. Others seemed to have incomplete lists.
Which others? If you can be more specific, it can be addressed. A general blanket “others” doesn’t help narrow the list.

Schisms over succession is nothing new, even Rome had the Avignon Papacy.
 
I did not recognize that the Greek and various churches claim to be in succession from the Bishop of Antioch.
 
I did not recognize that the Greek and various churches claim to be in succession from the Bishop of Antioch.
The Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch claims succession from Antioch, not the Greek Bishop of say Athens or Thessoloniki
 
Supposedly Saint Thomas went to India and established the episcopacy and churches in India and the surrounding region/countries. Here is a fuller list (although I’m not completely sure past Georgia).

Rome: St. Peter and Paul
Constantinople: St. Andrew
Antioch: St. Peter
Alexandria: St. Mark
Jerusalem: St. James
Moscow: St. Andrew (through Constantinople)
Georgia: St. Andrew
Armenian Churches: St. Bartholemew and Jude
Spain: St. James the Greater?
Ukraine: St. Andrew

And the Eastern Orthodox view (which is largely similar to the Catholic view, excluding the Primacy of the Pope) is that the Apostolic succession (being bishop) is shared by all the bishops as through the Church. So a bishop’s succession is no different than the succession of another bishop. They all share in the same apostolic succession. So in Eastern Orthodox thought, even if someone may hold a historical place as a successor of St. Peter (Antioch for example), everyone can basically say they are successors of St. Peter since everyone shares in the same apostolic succession of the Church.

And in terms of historical apostolic succession (that someone can trace back their ordination to an apostle, although most likely not knowing which apostle) is basically guaranteed for the Assyrian, Catholic, Oriental, and Eastern Orthodox Churches (Anglican church as well, but I’ll get back to that later). All of these churches were united at least for a century past the Council of Nicaea.

When Christianity became legal, it’s no surprise some claimed to have apostolic succession to claim authority. Of course, others who are ordained may be ordained by a false bishop, and he may never know. And it’s difficult to ensure that someone’s claim to the episcopacy is legitimate. The Council decreed that when a bishop is ordained, there are two extra bishops who are also present to ensure that the ordination is valid assuming at least one of the three bishops have valid succession. If you do the math, it basically guarantees that all bishops have valid succession after several generations of bishops. In this regard, all of those apostolic churches may have Apostolic Succession historically.

However physically/historically someone may have valid apostolic succession but this does not guarantee that they actually are ordained. Catholic theology says that there are several requirements for valid sacraments, and intent is one of them. This is why even past the schisms, Catholicism maintains the validity of Orthodox sacraments for example. However, the Anglican Church was then decreed by Pope Leo XIII in the 1896 bull Apostolicae curae to no longer have valid apostolic succession because their intent of the sacrament has changed so much as to make the sacrament null (hence Catholic theology says the Anglican church currently no longer has apostolic succession, even if they have a historical succession from the apostles).

The Eastern Orthodox view however sees apostolic succession as sort of an extension of the church. However Orthodoxy do not have ideas such as an indelible mark (once a priest always a priest) from Catholicism. To schism off from the church may result in cutting off from the apostolic succession of the Church. This is why Orthodox officially do not say whether Catholics have valid sacraments/apostolic succession because they are no longer part of the Orthodox Church.

I probably rambled way too long, but hope this is helpful.
 
And the Eastern Orthodox view (which is largely similar to the Catholic view, excluding the Primacy of the Pope)…
Correct if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that the Eastern Orthodox view does include the Primacy of the Patriarch of Rome, just not his supremacy.

Pax Christi
 
Correct if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that the Eastern Orthodox view does include the Primacy of the Patriarch of Rome, just not his supremacy.

Pax Christi
You’re right, supremacy was what I meant.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top