East/West where do we Baptize?

[Joseph_LaMothe]

I am a Roman Catholic male born after 1983
My Wife is a Ukrainian Catholic born after 1983

What, if any, baptismal options do we have?

My understanding:

CCEO 29/1 says the child belongs to the rite of the father unless both parents agree to the rite of the mother as long as it follows other cannons.

CIC 111 says a child is Latin if the father is or the parents agree, I see nothing forbidding or permitting agreeing on the rite of the mother.

I read this meaning a couple CAN decided to baptize in the rite of the mother but that the father’s rite preferred.

Are both licit? (I know both would be valid)

According to the new commentary on the Code of Cannon Law by the cannon law society of America our children can only be Latin.

CIC 112 allows me to switch rites, but CCEO 33 says only the wife.
What do we follow?

If I do switch to her rite, would my children still be able to “return” to the Latin rite if they chose to do so after 14?

If we baptized them Latin would they be able to become Ukrainian at 14?

Finally CIC 112 hit me with a doozy and seems to separate practice from membership. As in my children can be baptized in any rite but still belong to my own. Is this true?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I am a Roman Catholic male born after 1983
My Wife is a Ukrainian Catholic born after 1983

What, if any, baptismal options do we have?

My understanding:

CCEO 29/1 says the child belongs to the rite of the father unless both parents agree to the rite of the mother as long as it follows other cannons.

CIC 111 says a child is Latin if the father is or the parents agree, I see nothing forbidding or permitting agreeing on the rite of the mother.

I read this meaning a couple CAN decided to baptize in the rite of the mother but that the father’s rite preferred.

Are both licit? (I know both would be valid)

According to the new commentary on the Code of Cannon Law by the cannon law society of America our children can only be Latin.

CIC 112 allows me to switch rites, but CCEO 33 says only the wife.
What do we follow?

If I do switch to her rite, would my children still be able to “return” to the Latin rite if they chose to do so after 14?

If we baptized them Latin would they be able to become Ukrainian at 14?

Finally CIC 112 hit me with a doozy and seems to separate practice from membership. As in my children can be baptized in any rite but still belong to my own. Is this true?

never thought it would be that complicated…good luck…

 

[ConstantineTG]

There should be no fuss in it unless a son of yours is seeking ordination. Have them baptized wherever you want them baptized and attend wherever.

 

[5Loaves]

I am a Roman Catholic male born after 1983
My Wife is a Ukrainian Catholic born after 1983

What, if any, baptismal options do we have?

My understanding:

CCEO 29/1 says the child belongs to the rite of the father unless both parents agree to the rite of the mother as long as it follows other cannons.

CIC 111 says a child is Latin if the father is or the parents agree, I see nothing forbidding or permitting agreeing on the rite of the mother.

I read this meaning a couple CAN decided to baptize in the rite of the mother but that the father’s rite preferred.

Are both licit? (I know both would be valid)

According to the new commentary on the Code of Cannon Law by the cannon law society of America our children can only be Latin.

CIC 112 allows me to switch rites, but CCEO 33 says only the wife.
What do we follow?

If I do switch to her rite, would my children still be able to “return” to the Latin rite if they chose to do so after 14?

If we baptized them Latin would they be able to become Ukrainian at 14?

Finally CIC 112 hit me with a doozy and seems to separate practice from membership. As in my children can be baptized in any rite but still belong to my own. Is this true?

You ought to go to your tribunal and clarify this, but it does appear that in your case your child would be ascribed in the Latin Church.

As you say, CIC 111 §1 commentry page 151 directly addresses a Latin father, EC mother situation

At fourteen I think your child could make a request to change enrollment and if both the Latin and UGCC Bishops agree and the pastor of the UGCC supports it then s/he may transfer. I don’t see anything in the canon that allows that to automatically happen, as for example an EC woman marrying a Latin Catholic may transfer automatically to the Latin Church at the time of marriage.

As to the CCEO Canon 29 §1.

Canon 29 §1 By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only the mother is Catholic or if both parents by agreement freely request it, with due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See.

it may be that the “due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See” refers to the limitations set forth in CIC 111 §1.

As to changing Church at the time of marriage… CCEO Canon 291 has the same provision as the Latin law, that the child be baptized in the Church of the father, EC in that case. “By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father.”

There is a distinct prejudice against allowing an EC to transfer to the Latin Church. Since baptism follows the Church of the father, the allowing of an EC woman to automatically change church at the time of the marriage but not the EC man may be a layer of keeping this link to baptism of the children within the EC church. That is of course a guess on my part.

One can easily go nuts trying to figure out canon law. I’ve had a couple of classes in it through our diocese and loved studying it but it’s best left to the canon lawyers. My teacher works at our tribunal so I’ve had easy access to him, but I think in general tribunals are happy to help with these questions, especially since you aren’t asking the usual questions they get-- about decrees of nullity.

With appropriate permission your children can be baptized in a UGCC parish as a Latin Catholic. I’m not sure but perhaps ConstantineTG did this. The proper recording is done in the Baptismal record of the UGCC parish indicating that the child is enrolled in the Latin Church.

If your children are Latin and you request and are granted the change of Church I’m not sure if they automatically become UGCC with you. If you have a canon for that post it. I’m not up for looking right now. Know that again it is much harder to change from EC to Latin. On the other hand if you raise them in the UGCC why would they want to change to Latin? If they discern a vocation to religious life they can enter a Latin order, again with appropriate permissions. We had a UGCC deacon with us in my EC parish who is a Dominican and has since been ordained a priest by the Dominicans.

If you and your wife have access to a UGCC parish and you find you prefer to be a part of that community you are free to do that as a Latin Catholic. Hopefully the priest or the deacon is capable of discussing this with you. I think there are some priests better prepared for such discussions than others…

 

[Diakonia]

Do you want your child to be Latin or UGCC? That’s what you have to decide.

If Latin, you just go ahead and have him/her baptized as a Latin.

If UGCC, you and your wife just have to aacknowledge your agreement on it (which consists of so informing the UGCC priest) - exercising the right granted by:

CCEO 29 §1 to have the child baptized to the Rite/Church of its mother.

“§1 By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only the mother is Catholic or if both parents by agreement freely request it, …”

and

CIC 111 §1

“§1 **Through the reception of baptism a child becomes a member of the latin Church if the parents belong to that Church or, should one of them not belong to it, if they have both by common consent chosen that the child be baptised in the latin Church, **…”

In other words, if one of them does not belong to it, the child becomes a member of the Latin Church if they both consent to the child being baptsized as such.

If they mutually do not consent to baptism in the Latin Church, the child may be baptized in the Rite/Church of the non-Latin parent.

The restriction in the subsequent words (which I didn’t include in the quoted text) applies when the parents do not mutually agree on anything - nada (I want it in my church!; No, I want it in mine!) - then the father’s Rite/Church prevails.

It is that simple …

And, no, the child does not get an option to change at 14. That option only comes into play if a family with children under age 14 canonically transfers enrollment from one Church to another.

Then, at 14, children who were alive and accompanied their parents in transfer can transfer back to the Church of origin, should he/she so choose, w/o need to request it. (Children born subsequent to the transfer don’t get the option; they’d have to ask for a canonical transfer and be blessed to get it by the 2 hierarchs involved.)

(The 14 year old rule is kind of dumb, if you think about it - 14 year olds have enough trouble deciding what clothes to wear to the mall, let alone deciding to which Ritual Church they want to be ascribed)

 

[Joseph_LaMothe]

Thanks for the responses. Right now we both want to maintain our liturgical heritage and pass them on to our children. We have been attending both rites, as I’m sure our children will.

However, when we start a family we will want to have a main parish we attend and the different times for the rites of initiation will come into play. Plus, I was just curios as to what rite my children would be depending on where baptized because I like to know as much as I can about the church.

Most important, however, is that as good little Catholics nothing would make me prouder that if a son was to become one of God’s Priests. I know that a Catholic can receive all manners of sacraments from all manners of sources (baptized in emergency by protestant nurse for example OR communion in any rite and Sunday obligation fulfilled by any rite.) Becoming a Priest, however, is more restrictive sui iuris-ily speaking (though bi-ritual priests are also in existence). We both just want to know what rite our children would be so we know what kind of priesthood we should encourage them to discern (alter server, etc).

Thanks and God Bless!

 

[Vico]

Thanks for the responses. Right now we both want to maintain our liturgical heritage and pass them on to our children. We have been attending both rites, as I’m sure our children will.

However, when we start a family we will want to have a main parish we attend and the different times for the rites of initiation will come into play. Plus, I was just curios as to what rite my children would be depending on where baptized because I like to know as much as I can about the church.

Most important, however, is that as good little Catholics nothing would make me prouder that if a son was to become one of God’s Priests. I know that a Catholic can receive all manners of sacraments from all manners of sources (baptized in emergency by protestant nurse for example OR communion in any rite and Sunday obligation fulfilled by any rite.) Becoming a Priest, however, is more restrictive sui iuris-ily speaking (though bi-ritual priests are also in existence). We both just want to know what rite our children would be so we know what kind of priesthood we should encourage them to discern (alter server, etc).

Thanks and God Bless!

Since baptism is a visible sign of entry to the Catholic Church or ascription, and the ritual of baptism is to be given in that same Church, one should decide which Church the child it to be ascribed to ahead of time. Father is Latin Catholic, mother is Ukrainian Catholic, so it is possible for the child to be baptised/ascribed to either if you both agree.

Comparing CCEO 29.1 with CIC 111.1 may seem to restrict a minor from ascription to the eastern Church of the mother. According to the norm of both codes when the parents are not in agreement the child is always ascribed to the Church of the father. CIC 111 does not exclude the possibility of mutual agreement. So it is even possible to have Catholic children baptised in two different Catholic churches also (of the two Catholic parents).

See: p 11, Inter-Ecclesial Relations Between Eastern and Latin Catholics

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[Diakonia]

CIC 111 does not exclude the possibility of mutual agreement.

Um, that’s what I said - more clearly, I think.

So it is even possible to have Catholic children baptised in two different Catholic churches also (of the two Catholic parents).

Let’s be clear here, so as not to confuse the audience … it is possible to have 2 different Catholic children - siblings, baptized in 2 different Churches sui iuris: 1 in the Church sui iuris of the Dad; 1 in the Church sui iuris of the Mom. No double baptizing.

However, anyone who would choose to take that route can likely (and rightfully) expect to be looked at somewhat askance by any priest with common sense who realizes what they are doing.

“Ok, hon, you take the girls, I’ll take the boys. Wait! Maybe you should take the blondes, and I’ll take the brunettes, that way they won’t look out of place at church, … good thinking, huh?”

 

[Vico]

Um, that’s what I said - more clearly, I think.

Let’s be clear here, so as not to confuse the audience … it is possible to have 2 different Catholic children - siblings, baptized in 2 different Churches sui iuris: 1 in the Church sui iuris of the Dad; 1 in the Church sui iuris of the Mom. No double baptizing.

However, anyone who would choose to take that route can likely (and rightfully) expect to be looked at somewhat askance by any priest with common sense who realizes what they are doing.

“Ok, hon, you take the girls, I’ll take the boys. Wait! Maybe you should take the blondes, and I’ll take the brunettes, that way they won’t look out of place at church, … good thinking, huh?”

Your expression may be more clear, I just wanted to add my form of expression.

There is an eastern Catholic tradition in the Ukrainian Church that the boys follow the Church of the father and the girls the Church of the mother. (No kidding.)

 

[Diakonia]

There is an eastern Catholic tradition in the Ukrainian Church that the boys follow the Church of the father and the girls the Church of the mother. (No kidding.)

That’s true - although, historically, since you best be marrying another Ukrainian (or risk the wrath of your babusia :tsktsk: ), it usually only meant the difference as to whether one’s spouse was a Ukrainian Catholic or Ukrainian Orthodox.

Of course, these days, the latter allows of multiple choices, since - as I saw someone post elsewhere - every other Ukrainian Orthodox hierarch seems determined to be his own patriarch (the person said it better than that, wish I could remember the exact phrasing).