Ecclesia Dei will issue statement to clarify Motu Proprio

[BobP123]

Isn’t Lefebvre dead? I don’t think you can un-excommunicate dead people.

Then let’s canonize him.

 

[universalindult]

Isn’t Lefebvre dead? I don’t think you can un-excommunicate dead people.

Then let’s canonize him.

Oh boy…I’m not drawing ANY parallels here, I’m willing to let the Church decide, in her good time…

As with other saints who were excommunicated or investigated by ecclesiastic courts, such as St. Athanasius, St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, Joan of Arc was put on trial by an Inquisitorial court. In Joan’s case, the court was controlled by the English government in occupied northern France, leading to her execution at Rouen. When the French regained Rouen in 1449, a series of investigations were launched which led to a formal appeal run by the Inquisitor-General in 1455. She was declared innocent on July 7, 1456. The Inquisitor’s summary of evidence for the case describes her as a martyr who had been executed by a court which was itself in violation of the Church’s rules.

St. Athanasius, St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and St. Joan of Arc, Ora Pro Nobis!

Eternal rest grant unto Archbishop Lefebvre, O Lord.
And may perpetual light shine upon him.
And may his soul, and the souls of all the faithfully departed through the mercy of God rest in peace.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Oh boy…I’m not drawing ANY parallels here, I’m willing to let the Church decide, in her good time…

St. Athanasius, St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and St. Joan of Arc, Ora Pro Nobis!

Eternal rest grant unto Archbishop Lefebvre, O Lord.
And may perpetual light shine upon him.
And may his soul, and the souls of all the faithfully departed through the mercy of God rest in peace.

Saint Joan’s excommunication was not issued by the Holy
See. There is good evidence that St. Athanasius’s excommunication was obtained by actually torturing the Pope.

 

[childofmary1143]

Paul VI not only abolished the TLM, he made it impossible for future popes to ever celebrate it at St. Peter’s again?

Can you prove that? Are you saying that Pope Benedict XVI can’t say the TLM in St. Peter’s??

 

[TMC]

Saint Joan’s excommunication was not issued by the Holy
See. There is good evidence that St. Athanasius’s excommunication was obtained by actually torturing the Pope.

I prefer the theory that the letters excommunicating Athanasius were forgeries, but either way his excommuncation was never valid. I think Theresa was excommunicated by the head of order and that was later recanted. Not sure about John of the Cross, but I think its a similar story.

This came up on Martin Luther a few years ago. JPII had said some nice things about Luther and was asked if he would lift his excommunication. JPII said that excommunication is only during lifetime and that Luther was before a higher tribunal.

Anyway, my understanding was that Lefebvre was automatically excommunicated for presiding over illicit “consecrations.” Is there a procedure for taking back an automatic excommunication?

 

[BobP123]

INTERVIEW OF DARIO CARDINAL CASTRILLON HOYOS
PRESIDENT OF THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION “ECCLESIA DEI”
Interview with Gianni Cardinale, of 30 Giorni

November 2005

    "Unfortunately Monsignor Lefebvre went ahead with the consecration and 
    hence the situation of separation came about, EVEN IF IT WAS **NOT** A 
    FORMAL SCHISM.

ON THE PURPORTED “EXCOMMUNICATION” OF ABP. MARCEL LEFEBVRE

ROSALIO JOSE CARDINAL CASTILLO LARA,
J.C.D. (DOCTOR OF CANON LAW)
President of the Pontifical Commission
for the Authentic Interpretation of Canon Law
President of the Disciplinary Commission of the Roman Curia

    "The act of consecrating a bishop [without explicit papal
    permission] is **not** in itself a schismatic act."

COUNT NERI CAPPONI,
D.CN.L. - LATERAN (DOCTOR OF CANON LAW)
LL.D. - FLORENCE (DOCTOR OF LAWS)
Professor Emeritus of Canon Law at the University of Florence
Accredited as an Advocate of the Holy Roman Rota
(the Holy See’s highest marriage tribunal)
Accredited as an Advocate of the Apostolic Signatura
(the Holy See’s highest appeals tribunal)

    "The fact is that Msgr. Lefebvre simply said:  'I am creating
    bishops in order that my priestly order can continue.  They do
    not take the place of other bishops.  I am not creating a
    parallel church.'  Therefore, this act was **not**, per se,
    schismatic."

PROFESSOR GERINGER, J.C.D.
Canon Lawyer at the University of Munich

    "With the episcopal consecrations, Archbishop Lefebvre was
    by **no** means creating a schism."

REV. FR. PATRICK VALDINI, J.C.D.
Dean of the Faculty of Canon Law at the Catholic Institute of Paris

    "It is **not **the consecration of a bishop that creates the schism.
    What makes the schism is to give the bishop an apostolic mission
    [which Abp. Lefebvre **never

did]."

REV. FR. GERALD E. MURRAY, J.C.D. (PONTIFICAL GREGORIAN UNIVERSITY)
Title of Doctoral Thesis Accepted: “The Canonical Status of the Lay Faithful
Associated with the Late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the Society of
Saint Pius X: Are they Excommunicated as Schismatics?”

    "They're **not** excommunicated as schismatics, because the Vatican
    has never said they are....  You can ... show that Lefebvre
    himself was not excommunicated and therefore no one else was....
    I come to the conclusion that, canonically speaking, he's **not**        guilty of a schismatic act punishable by canon law.  In the
    case of the Society of Saint Pius X, the Vatican **never** 
    declared any priest or lay person to have become a schismatic."

Hope this helps.

 

[Aramis]

Isn’t Lefebvre dead? I don’t think you can un-excommunicate dead people.

Yes, you can. See also Galileo Galilei.

His excommunication was lifted this century. He’s been dead several centuries.

 

[TMC]

Hope this helps.

No, not really. Are you saying Lefebvre wasn’t excommunicated? I know he has fans here, but I was pretty sure he was declared schismatic.

Yes, you can. See also Galileo Galilei.

His excommunication was lifted this century. He’s been dead several centuries.

Galilieo was never excommunicated, he was just declared heretic, and that was lifted centuries ago.

Besides, what purpose does it serve to un-excommunicate (or un-heretic) dead people? It does nothing for the dead person. It can be a useful message or symbol, I suppose, as in Galileo’s case. But I can’t imagine that Benedict wants to send the message that defying the Church, conducting illict ceremonies, and creating schism are good things.

 

[BobP123]

Are you saying Lefebvre wasn’t excommunicated?

I’m not saying anything. I just stated some opinions of those who are in much better positions to judge than we are.

It appears to be, however, that yes, he was excommunicated but there is no schism. Many are excommunicated for a lot of reasons, such as abortion, etc. Doesn’t mean that association with them means that you’re automatically excommunicated too, though. Right?

 

[I_Believe]

if that is so, it would be announced on their website, or there would be some kind of letter written and posted on the site. there has been no news on that front at all. so don’t pay attention to rumors.
there has been no further news about bishop fellay speaking with the holy father, or any negotiations at all. so if there is some kind of talk going on, we wont know about it until after the fact.

Here is what I found on it. Make of it what you will.
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2007/10/excommunications-lifted-before-end-of.html

The LaCroix article is in french and I didn’t bother to translate it.

 

[I_Believe]

Then let’s canonize him.

Bob ! Careful, you are upsetting the LeFememinists !

 

[universalindult]

what purpose does it serve to un-excommunicate (or un-heretic) dead people? It does nothing for the dead person.

Then was Jesus lying when He said,

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I don’t see any mention of present, past, or future tense in this statement, so I would assume that if the Church looses on earth an excommunication, that excommunication shall be loosed in Heaven also.

It may help to recall that though we exist on a temporal plane, there is no time in Heaven per se.

 

[TMC]

Then was Jesus lying when He said,

I don’t see any mention of present, past, or future tense in this statement, so I would assume that if the Church looses on earth an excommunication, that excommunication shall be loosed in Heaven also.

It may help to recall that though we exist on a temporal plane, there is no time in Heaven per se.

Excommunication has no meaning after death. It is the denial of communion with the Church. Whether this prevents salvation has been debated, I think, but I don’t believe it does. But once one dies, he is subject to divine judgment based on his life. I don’t understand how excommunication after death can change this.

It is no different than forgiveness of sins, which is what your quote refers to. If your viewpoint were correct, a priest could forgive the sins of a dead person at his funeral and guarantee he goes to heaven. I don’t think that’s how it works.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Excommunication has no meaning after death. It is the denial of communion with the Church. Whether this prevents salvation has been debated, I think, but I don’t believe it does. But once one dies, he is subject to divine judgment based on his life. I don’t understand how excommunication after death can change this.

It is no different than forgiveness of sins, which is what your quote refers to. If your viewpoint were correct, a priest could forgive the sins of a dead person at his funeral and guarantee he goes to heaven. I don’t think that’s how it works.

You’re right, it doesn’t

Excommunication does not mean that a person ABSOLUTELY is in Hell, as only God can judge to that. Excommunication is an objectively serious situation and we can only state what is objectively true. The Church states and proclaims objective truth, but God acts according to His own judgment. We have to stick to the objective because we cannot see into God’s mind.

If anyone is in hell, the lifting of an excommunication isn’t going to get them out. Likewise, an excommunicated person may be in heaven, because God sees and acts beyond the objective.