Ecclesiastical Latin: How to pronounce it?

[CutlerB]

In a lecture on Canon Law at university, the professor mentioned a book named “Leges Ecclesiae”. When I referred to it later, pronouncing it “Le-j-es Ecclesiae”, he insisted I say “Le-gg-es Ecclesiae”, pronouncing the g in a hard way.

Apparently, Germans do this all the time (and I am in Germany), but English, French, Italian and speakers of other languages tend to go for the softer pronunciation (e.g. Ecce Agnus Dei, Benedicere, gratias agimus tibi). Now, I get a shiver every time I hear the German pronunciation, because it is just so displeasing to the ear, and even more so when sung.

From what I know, the proper ecclesiastical pronunciation is a development after Classical Latin, probably under the influence of Italian. My argument is that, since it’s a development in the language as our modern languages are from their predecessors, it is correct and permissible to pronounce it as “Le-j-es Ecclesiae”.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

[pianistclare]

In a lecture on Canon Law at university, the professor mentioned a book named “Leges Ecclesiae”. When I referred to it later, pronouncing it “Le-j-es Ecclesiae”, he insisted I say “Le-gg-es Ecclesiae”, pronouncing the g in a hard way.

Apparently, Germans do this all the time (and I am in Germany), but English, French, Italian and speakers of other languages tend to go for the softer pronunciation (e.g. Ecce Agnus Dei, Benedicere, gratias agimus tibi). Now, I get a shiver every time I hear the German pronunciation, because it is just so displeasing to the ear, and even more so when sung.

From what I know, the proper ecclesiastical pronunciation is a development after Classical Latin, probably under the influence of Italian. My argument is that, since it’s a development in the language as our modern languages are from their predecessors, it is correct and permissible to pronounce it as “Le-j-es Ecclesiae”.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

PM ProVobis. He’s the resident Latin expert.

 

[John_Martin]

Hmmm…
Es scheint, er versteht Ihre Aussprache.
Had to do that since you said you were in Germany. It appears he understood you in your pronunciation, since he was able to “correct” you. So, you got your point across with your words. To me, this means that he is also aware of other soundings, and so it is not that critical when you are with the educated who have heard other “dialects” - In various parts of Germany, different dialects pronounce the “g” differently “Gestern” and I have heard it pronounced “Yestern” - yet all understand.

 

[glendab]

The rule is this: if your Prof. is giving you a grade for it, pronounce it whatever way he or she wishes while in earshot, and as you wish at other times. If you are only a student, then chances are the “correct” pronunciation isn’t yet known to you, thus the reason you are in a class learning.

There is also this - there are two legitimate pronunciations for Latin, Ecclesial and Classical and beyond that, there are cultural norms that come and go in regions. Perhaps you could ask your professor to clarify for you which he is teaching and or prefers and when there are conflicting pronunciations, he could give a heads-up in the class. Some do, some don’t already. My guess is if it is a Latin course in a Law School your getting Classical pronunciations but if it is a Seminary, then guess what you’re being taught? You guessed it, the Ecclesial pronunciation. But if you ask me the bottom line is if you want to pass or even excel, Professor is always right till the day after graduation.

Glenda

 

[tee_eff_em]

In a lecture on Canon Law at university, the professor mentioned a book named “Leges Ecclesiae”. When I referred to it later, pronouncing it “Le-j-es Ecclesiae”, he insisted I say “Le-gg-es Ecclesiae”, pronouncing the g in a hard way.

Apparently, Germans do this all the time (and I am in Germany), but English, French, Italian and speakers of other languages tend to go for the softer pronunciation (e.g. Ecce Agnus Dei, Benedicere, gratias agimus tibi). Now, I get a shiver every time I hear the German pronunciation, because it is just so displeasing to the ear, and even more so when sung.

From what I know, the proper ecclesiastical pronunciation is a development after Classical Latin, probably under the influence of Italian. My argument is that, since it’s a development in the language as our modern languages are from their predecessors, it is correct and permissible to pronounce it as “Le-j-es Ecclesiae”.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Was the professor speaking the name of the book in Ecclesiastical Latin? Or was he speaking it in Restored Classical Latin? Or was he pronouncing it in Latin-as-pronounced-by-the-typical-German (eg, the way one would pronounce the taxonomic names of species)?

You are correct that the soft G is typical for Ecclesiastical pronunciation, even among Germans (look up YouTubes of Pope Emeritus Benedict if you like).

Aside: I once heard a speaker on Catholic radio show speaking about a document he kept pronouncing “Hu-man-ay Vee-tai”, the ultimate syllables rhyming with “play” and “ply” respectively – Mixing up Ecclesiastical and Restored Classical pronunciations just made him sound stoopid to me. :whacky: :twocents:

tee

 

[ProVobis]

Apparently, Germans do this all the time (and I am in Germany), but English, French, Italian and speakers of other languages tend to go for the softer pronunciation (e.g. Ecce Agnus Dei, Benedicere, gratias agimus tibi). Now, I get a shiver every time I hear the German pronunciation, because it is just so displeasing to the ear, and even more so when sung.

I doubt if I’m anywhere as good as tee or glen but I guess it’s what you’re used to hearing. I’ve heard a Polish FSSP priest saying “prin SIP ee o” and “bay nay DEE say ray” instead of the more Italian “prin CHIP ee o” and “bay nay DEE chah ray.”

 

[CutlerB]

The rule is this: if your Prof. is giving you a grade for it, pronounce it whatever way he or she wishes while in earshot, and as you wish at other times. If you are only a student, then chances are the “correct” pronunciation isn’t yet known to you, thus the reason you are in a class learning.

There is also this - there are two legitimate pronunciations for Latin, Ecclesial and Classical and beyond that, there are cultural norms that come and go in regions. Perhaps you could ask your professor to clarify for you which he is teaching and or prefers and when there are conflicting pronunciations, he could give a heads-up in the class. Some do, some don’t already. My guess is if it is a Latin course in a Law School your getting Classical pronunciations but if it is a Seminary, then guess what you’re being taught? You guessed it, the Ecclesial pronunciation. But if you ask me the bottom line is if you want to pass or even excel, Professor is always right till the day after graduation.

Glenda

It’s in seminary, and it’s not a Latin course.

Was the professor speaking the name of the book in Ecclesiastical Latin? Or was he speaking it in Restored Classical Latin? Or was he pronouncing it in Latin-as-pronounced-by-the-typical-German (eg, the way one would pronounce the taxonomic names of species)?

You are correct that the soft G is typical for Ecclesiastical pronunciation, even among Germans (look up YouTubes of Pope Emeritus Benedict if you like).

Aside: I once heard a speaker on Catholic radio show speaking about a document he kept pronouncing “Hu-man-ay Vee-tai”, the ultimate syllables rhyming with “play” and “ply” respectively – Mixing up Ecclesiastical and Restored Classical pronunciations just made him sound stoopid to me. :whacky: :twocents:

tee

He was not speaking Ecclesiastical Latin. I’m not aware there is a difference between Restored Classical and Typical German Latin. I’d say it was Classical.

Indeed, Pope Benedict pronounces it that way, but he’s one of the few Germans who would. Here at seminary, all German students use Classical, and all other students (esp. Latin countries) pronounce it in the Ecclesiastical way.

Regarding the aside: That’s interesting, because the professor (who now teaches at the Gregoriana) said “Leges Ecclesiae” rhyming with “play”, although it’s not quite the same as our German “ä”.

Thanks so far!

 

[Cavaradossi]

It’s in seminary, and it’s not a Latin course.

He was not speaking Ecclesiastical Latin. I’m not aware there is a difference between Restored Classical and Typical German Latin. I’d say it was Classical.

Indeed, Pope Benedict pronounces it that way, but he’s one of the few Germans who would. Here at seminary, all German students use Classical, and all other students (esp. Latin countries) pronounce it in the Ecclesiastical way.

Regarding the aside: That’s interesting, because the professor (who now teaches at the Gregoriana) said “Leges Ecclesiae” rhyming with “play”, although it’s not quite the same as our German “ä”.

Thanks so far!

Here’s a good shibboleth for you maybe. Ask your professor how he would pronounce “Factorem caeli et terrae.” If he pronounces caeli as kaili and terrae as terrai (ai as in the English word “eye” or as in the German word “Ei”), then chances are that he’s probably trying to effect a classical pronunciation. If he pronounces caeli as tseli, and terrae as terre, then he’s probably reading it more akin to how Germans have traditionally read Latin (i.e., in a manner very similar to how they read German).

 

[CutlerB]

Here’s a good shibboleth for you maybe. Ask your professor how he would pronounce “Factorem caeli et terrae.” If he pronounces caeli as kaili and terrae as terrai (ai as in the English word “eye” or as in the German word “Ei”), then chances are that he’s probably trying to effect a classical pronunciation. If he pronounces caeli as tseli, and terrae as terre, then he’s probably reading it more akin to how Germans have traditionally read Latin (i.e., in a manner very similar to how they read German).

He will pronounce it in the second manner. That’s how everyone says it here. Well, everyone but me and the Spanish, Portuguese or Italian students.

 

[glendab]

Well, it could be he has a German accent and that is all there is to it. I’m in the process of learning Latin and when I speak it, I tend to have an American accent. I know that. I can hear it. I don’t expect to get over it either. Pope Benedict XVI’s pronunciations are excellent. He is very verbally gifted and you can tell he has worked at it. I loved his voice. But he too does have an accent. Most folks do. That is all that is probably the problem. I guess the OP could try and find a Latin speech coach and pay to have some tutoring on enunciation, etc. but it would seem a little vain to me. My oldest is good at Greek and uses it on the job and translates for academics and such persons. She’s had a few students privately so far, but not much else and does get frustrated by mispronunciation but that is just because she is a perfectionist. Most folks don’t really feel a need to speak any language perfectly. Passably is the goal for me.

Glenda

 

[GangGreen]

Find a good guide on Italian pronunciation and you’ll find the correct pronunciation for most Ecclesiastical Latin words.

Your pronunciation was the correct one.