Ecclesiasticus 3: God & evil

[Shlomey]

Ecclesiasticus 3:
7 Why is** one day better than another**, though the sun gives the same daylight throughout the year?
8 They have been differentiated in the mind of the Lord, who has diversified the seasons and feasts;
9 some he has made more important and has hallowed, others he has made ordinary days.
10 Human beings come from the ground, Adam himself was formed out of earth;
11 in the fullness of his wisdom the Lord has made distinctions between them, and diversified their conditions.
12 Some of them he has blessed, hallowing and setting them near him; others he has cursed and humiliated by degrading them from their positions.
13 Like clay in the hands of the potter to mould as it pleases him, so are human beings in the hands of their Maker to reward as he judges right.
14 Opposite evil stands good, opposite death, life; so too opposite the devout stands the sinner.
15 Contemplate all the works of the Most High, you will find **they go in pairs, by opposites **

• JNB

I read this in the Bible after watching a video on Luther proposing that God is the author of both good and evil.
He refered to a passage in Exodus though, bu I was rather perplexed to read this passage in Ecclesiasticus, because it does seem to be as though God intended evil to be.

 

[Trishie]

Evil is the absense of good. It is perpetrated by people who do harm instead of good; who reject love for hate and cruelty. It’s not created by God but is the absece of God’s spirit and love in people’s actions to each other. In giving us free wiil, God has in a sense created the capacity for evil in that we have freedom to choose or to reject godness and love, but only in that sense. If there is no light of God’s love in a soul, there is darkness.

Evil is not an identity to be created. Devils themselves are once glorious angels full of God’s light and love and goodness. They rejected God and the light and love and goodness went from them. They made the darkness of evil and hate in themselves by their rejection…as do human beings. The capacity the angels had that was free will, and the capacity we have…this is the only sense in which the possiblity of evil exists. But we are created to choose God, to choose light and truth and love and goodness, so we cannot blame God as the source of the darkness that some angels and some souls choose.

 

[Shlomey]

Evil is the absense of good. It is perpetrated by people who do harm instead of good; who reject love for hate and cruelty. It’s not created by God but is the absece of God’s spirit and love in people’s actions to each other. In giving us free wiil, God has in a sense created the capacity for evil in that we have freedom to choose or to reject godness and love, but only in that sense. If there is no light of God’s love in a soul, there is darkness.

Evil is not an identity to be created. Devils themselves are once glorious angels full of God’s light and love and goodness. They rejected God and the light and love and goodness went from them. They made the darkness of evil and hate in themselves by their rejection…as do human beings. The capacity the angels had that was free will, and the capacity we have…this is the only sense in which the possiblity of evil exists. But we are created to choose God, to choose light and truth and love and goodness, so we cannot blame God as the source of the darkness that some angels and some souls choose.

I know of the explanations. What I am bothered with is this particular passage in the Bible that I found yesterday which seems to really suggest that the author of the different (good & evil) conditions of men is God Himself.

I know that such thinking is forbidden, which is why I am seeking a good explanation of this particular passage: it deals with a matter of faith if I am not mistaken, namely with God being good or dualistic in nature: as Hegel suggested “the 4th person of God is the Diabolo”.

 

[Trishie]

God is not dualistic, I may not have been clear enough in explaining that the only sense in which God can be said to have ‘created’ evil is that He gave us free will to accept or reject His love and goodness. It is that rejection that is the cause for the existence of evil. If God had created us without free will, there would only be goodness…so in that sense He created it if anyone chooses to express it in that manner, including the author of a book in the Bible.

As it is, Ecclesiasticus 3 verses 1-31 is actually about duties to parents 1-16/18, about humility, 17-24, about pride, 26- 29, charity to the poor, 26-29. You may be quoting from a different place in scripture? I checked Eccleciastes to see if you got your texts from there, and Eccleciastes 3 lists the seasons for human life…“A time for giving birth, a time for dying”…and so on. Mine is a respected Catholic Bible ‘The Jerusalem Bible’

 

[Shlomey]

God is not dualistic, I may not have been clear enough in explaining that the only sense in which God can be said to have ‘created’ evil is that He gave us free will to accept or reject His love and goodness. It is that rejection that is the cause for the existence of evil. If God had created us without free will, there would only be goodness…so in that sense He created it if anyone chooses to express it in that manner, including the author of a book in the Bible.

As it is, Ecclesiasticus 3 verses 1-31 is actually about duties to parents 1-16/18, about humility, 17-24, about pride, 26- 29, charity to the poor, 26-29. You may be quoting from a different place in scripture? I checked Eccleciastes to see if you got your texts from there, and Eccleciastes 3 lists the seasons for human life…“A time for giving birth, a time for dying”…and so on. Mine is a respected Catholic Bible ‘The Jerusalem Bible’

I actually quoted from the New Jerusalem Bible. I read it in German which would be “Jesus Sirach”.

woops, wait, it’s chapter 33!



That happens when I mistype once and copy the error…

Here the Douay-Rheims Version:

7 Why doth one day excel another, and one light another, and one year another year, when all come of the sun? 8 By the knowledge of the Lord they were distinguished, the sun being made, and keeping his commandment. 9 And he ordered the seasons, and holidays of them, and in them they celebrated festivals at an hour. 10 Some of them God made high and great days, and some of them he put in the number of ordinary days. And all men are from the ground, and out of the earth, from whence Adam was created.

11 With much knowledge the Lord hath divided them and diversified their ways. 12 Some of them hath he blessed, and exalted: and some of them hath he sanctified, and set near himself: and some of them hath he cursed and brought low, and turned them from their station. 13 As the potter’s clay is in his hand, to fashion and order it: 14 All his ways are according to his ordering: so man is in the hand of him that made him, and he will render to him according to his judgment. 15 Good is set against evil, and life against death: so also is the sinner against a just man. And so look upon all the works of the most High. Two and two, and one against another.

 

[Shlomey]

Someone please answer this…I have to argue away this seemingly dialectic image of God.

 

[tobinatorstark]

God is not dualistic, I may not have been clear enough in explaining that the only sense in which God can be said to have ‘created’ evil is that He gave us free will to accept or reject His love and goodness. It is that rejection that is the cause for the existence of evil. If God had created us without free will, there would only be goodness…so in that sense He created it if anyone chooses to express it in that manner, including the author of a book in the Bible.

As it is, Ecclesiasticus 3 verses 1-31 is actually about duties to parents 1-16/18, about humility, 17-24, about pride, 26- 29, charity to the poor, 26-29. You may be quoting from a different place in scripture? I checked Eccleciastes to see if you got your texts from there, and Eccleciastes 3 lists the seasons for human life…“A time for giving birth, a time for dying”…and so on. Mine is a respected Catholic Bible ‘The Jerusalem Bible’

• JNB

I read this in the Bible after watching a video on Luther proposing that God is the author of both good and evil.
He refered to a passage in Exodus though, bu I was rather perplexed to read this passage in Ecclesiasticus, because it does seem to be as though God intended evil to be.

As it is, Ecclesiasticus 3 verses 1-31 is actually about duties to parents 1-16/18, about humility, 17-24, about pride, 26- 29, charity to the poor, 26-29. You may be quoting from a different place in scripture? I checked Eccleciastes to see if you got your texts from there, and Eccleciastes 3 lists the seasons for human life…“A time for giving birth, a time for dying”…and so on. Mine is a respected Catholic Bible ‘The Jerusalem Bible’

I too checked scripture and the NAB and and Douay both talk about the same topics as the Jerusalem Bible does. What Bible version are you quoting?? Are you sure you don’t mean another book???

 

[passus]

I too checked scripture and the NAB and and Douay both talk about the same topics as the Jerusalem Bible does. What Bible version are you quoting?? Are you sure you don’t mean another book???

The passage is actually Sirach 33:7-15.

 

[tobinatorstark]

The passage is actually Sirach 33:7-15.

Thanks

 

[tobinatorstark]

From the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 7. Another. God’s will alone appoints one to be holy or fine; and another to be stormy, or dedicated to labour. (Calmet) — And one. Greek, “and all the light of the day throughout the year proceeds from the sun.”

Ver. 8. The sun. Greek, “and he distinguished the seasons and holidays (10.) some,” &c.

Ver. 10. Great. Greek, “holy.” (Haydock) — Thus all men are by nature equal. Yet what difference do we not find in their condition? Some live in obscurity, who might have shone upon the throne; and this is God’s will. (Calmet)

Ver. 12. Station. Exterminating the Chanaanites. God disposes of all with sovereign power and justice, Romans ix. 29.

Ver. 14. Ordering. All depend on God. (Calmet) — "The predestination of the saints is nothing but the foreknowledge and preparation of God’s benefits, by which those are most certainly liberated who obtain their freedom. But where are the rest left; except in the mass of perdition, by the just judgment of the Deity? (St. Augustine, Persev. xiv. n. 35, and Corrept. xiii. n. 42.)

Ver. 15. Another. Lights and shades both contribute to form the beauty of a picture. (Haydock) — Antitheses adorn a discourse, as opposite things do the universe. (St. Augustine, City of God xi. 18.) — God will make the wicked subservient to his glory.

 

[Shlomey]

From the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 7. Another. God’s will alone appoints one to be holy or fine; and another to be stormy, or dedicated to labour. (Calmet) — And one. Greek, “and all the light of the day throughout the year proceeds from the sun.”

Ver. 8. The sun. Greek, “and he distinguished the seasons and holidays (10.) some,” &c.

Ver. 10. Great. Greek, “holy.” (Haydock) — Thus all men are by nature equal. Yet what difference do we not find in their condition? Some live in obscurity, who might have shone upon the throne; and this is God’s will. (Calmet)

Ver. 12. Station. Exterminating the Chanaanites. God disposes of all with sovereign power and justice, Romans ix. 29.

Ver. 14. Ordering. All depend on God. (Calmet) — "The predestination of the saints is nothing but the foreknowledge and preparation of God’s benefits, by which those are most certainly liberated who obtain their freedom. But where are the rest left; except in the mass of perdition, by the just judgment of the Deity? (St. Augustine, Persev. xiv. n. 35, and Corrept. xiii. n. 42.)

Ver. 15. Another. Lights and shades both contribute to form the beauty of a picture. (Haydock) — Antitheses adorn a discourse, as opposite things do the universe. (St. Augustine, City of God xi. 18.) — God will make the wicked subservient to his glory.

Thanks. A Greek Orthodox friend gave me this explanation:

7-9 God is the Author of Holy days, seasons and feasts. IT is not speaking of man itself other then that we live within time unlike God. Some days are Holy some Ordinary and that is why we have feast days and holy days. This is clear both in the NT and OT for example people gathering on the day of Penacost (sp) (acts 2:1, 5)

10-11 is just speaking of the fall and now we are seperate from God due to the knowldege we gained from eating of the fruit.

12 God back to the some days being sancitifed for the Lord and others not.

13 This is speaking of that having complete Submission to the Lord is the Higest virtue. Not saying its the only way to go to heaven just that it is a virture.

14-15: I see this speaking of the duel nature of humans…how within ourselves both Good and evil. Troughtout the bible even when we are following God we still sin…its part of our nature in freewilll. For an example tough of the Good comming out of evil one has to look no further then the cross where a great good came out of evil.

I am not yet really sure, but at least it gives me a broader view apart from Luther’s idea that God is also the author of evil.

Thanks!

btw: I posted above also that tis chapter 33 of Ecclesiasticus (Jesus Sirach).