Ectopic pregnancy and direct abortion.

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:rolleyes:
“therefore tissue will continue to develop and** the mother will need to have surgery anyway.”** :confused:

Methotrexate can and does completely terminate an ectopic pregnancy.

'Methotrexate can be used to:

End an early ectopic pregnancy.

Prevent the growth of any embryonic or fetal cells that are left behind after surgery to end an ectopic pregnancy.

‘Methotrexate treatment can be given as a single shot or as several injections. If an ectopic pregnancy continues after 2 or 3 doses of methotrexate, surgical treatment is needed to remove the ectopic pregnancy.’

webmd.com/baby/methotrexate-for-ectopic-pregnancy
What I meant by “tissue” was that when the drug has failed to do its “job”, there will be fetal tissue left over which can cause the mothers hormones to continue. If this occurs, she will require surgery to either remove the tube or to “clean” it out. — thanks for the description of what the drug is used for though :rolleyes:
 
Even my doctors, who are not catholic, opted for the surgical approach because of the dangers of the Methotrexate to the mother and the fact that it is a direct abortion. Not to mention that it is not a 100% in removing the baby and therefore tissue will continue to develop and the mother will need to have surgery anyway…prolonging the process of a miscarriage is emotionally and physically draining to the mother. I know, in my heart, that my baby is in heaven and that I did the best thing for him.
Methotrexate versus surgery

If your ectopic pregnancy is not too far advanced and has not ruptured, methotrexate may be a treatment option for you. Methotrexate treatment avoids the risks of surgery and may be less likely to damage the fallopian tube than surgery. And it may offer a better chance of having your fertility after treatment.

Some women who receive a methotrexate series for ectopic pregnancy report more side effects and less overall comfort than women who have laparoscopy. On the other hand, women who have laparoscopy may experience side effects related to general anaesthesia and surgery, such as fatigue, abdominal bloating, and shoulder pain.

If you are not concerned with preserving fertility, surgery for an ectopic pregnancy is faster than methotrexate treatment and causes less bleeding.

healthlinkbc.ca/kb/content/drugdetail/aa84234.html

Studies that look at how successful subsequent pregnancy is following this treatment have found that it is at least as good as following surgery and sometimes better. Surgery can cause scarring around the tube, and it may be that avoiding this is one reason why future pregnancies may be more likely to be successful after medical treatment.

…on average only one in 15 women will need surgery after treatment with methotrexate.

Sometimes you may notice some mild abdominal pain after the treatment, though this should not be severe. Other occasional side effects (affecting up to 15% of people) include nausea, vomiting, indigestion or feelings of fatigue. Very rarely, it can affect the liver or blood counts, but this really is unusual, mild if it does occur and only transient. The follow-up blood tests will check for this.

womens-health.co.uk/mtx.asp
 
What I meant by “tissue” was that when the abortion process from Methotrexate has begun, the baby deteriorates and dies…I was told that in many cases the drug doesn’t do its job properly and there is fetal tissue left behind. Like when a woman is having a uterine miscarriage…if the bleeding continues over a certain period of time, she may need to have a D&C to remove any left over fetal tissue…

I in no way meant “tissue” as meaing the baby.
Only 1 in 15 women who use methotrexate need surgery afterwards to deal with the very issue you’re dicussing. See the link in the post above.
 
With all respect, the results are very different. The chemical option does not treat the child as a human being with inherent dignity, but instead a mere nuisance with no human life in it at all. A lump of extraneous cells to be dissolved chemically with no more thought for it and no more inherent worth than a cancerous tumour or infected abscess has.
It’s clear that you haven’t a clue as to what methotrexate actually does, as it certainly doesn’t dissolve cells.

Methotrexate stops the growth of rapidly dividing cells, such as embryonic, fetal, and early placenta cells.

healthlinkbc.ca/kb/content/drugdetail/aa84234.html
 
:rolleyes:

What I meant by “tissue” was that when the drug has failed to do its “job”, there will be fetal tissue left over which can cause the mothers hormones to continue. If this occurs, she will require surgery to either remove the tube or to “clean” it out. — thanks for the description of what the drug is used for though :rolleyes:
In your original post, you wrote;

" Not to mention that it is not a 100% in removing the baby and therefore tissue will continue to develop and the mother will need to have surgery anyway."

It’s quite misleading, as I’m not sure if your saying that in the statistically few cases, surgery will still be needed or are you saying that in most cases, surgery will be needed anyways?

I’m not sure what your actually saying.

Methotrexate is a very successful pharmacological intervention with regards to ectopic pregnancies.

uptodate.com/home/content/topic.do?topicKey=gen_gyne/11036

Another systematic review included 26 observational studies of 1300 women with ectopic pregnancy [3]. Overall success rates for single versus multiple dose regimens were 88 and 93 percent, a significant difference.
 
In your original post, you wrote;

" Not to mention that it is not a 100% in removing the baby and therefore tissue will continue to develop and the mother will need to have surgery anyway."

It’s quite misleading, as I’m not sure if your saying that in the statistically few cases, surgery will still be needed or are you saying that in most cases, surgery will be needed anyways?

I’m not sure what your actually saying.

Methotrexate is a very successful pharmacological intervention with regards to ectopic pregnancies.

uptodate.com/home/content/topic.do?topicKey=gen_gyne/11036

Another systematic review included 26 observational studies of 1300 women with ectopic pregnancy [3]. Overall success rates for single versus multiple dose regimens were 88 and 93 percent, a significant difference.
What I meant to say: Methotrexate, while it is effective in the termination of early pregnancy and ectopic pregnancy, is not always 100% effective. In some cases, when the fetal tissue will not remove itself even after subsquent treatment, surgery is then required to either remove the damaged tube.

(I had issues with my computer, when I was first posting…I wanted to clarify it then, but I posted during my crash)
 
What I meant to say: Methotrexate, while it is effective in the termination of early pregnancy and ectopic pregnancy, is not always 100% effective. In some cases, when the fetal tissue will not remove itself even after subsquent treatment, surgery is then required to either remove the damaged tube.

(I had issues with my computer, when I was first posting…I wanted to clarify it then, but I posted during my crash)
The success rate for multiple dose regimes is 93%. Those are some excellent statistics with regards to only 7% of women needing further surgery.

1000 women who take the drug, only 70 of them will require further surgical intervention.

( Source cited in previous post)
 
But the intent in both removal and useing certain drugs is to save the mother. The outcome of the child is already decided on “Mother Nature”.
The teaching of the Church is to remove the diseased portion of the tube without intending to directly abort another living being, the baby. There are two beings here. Not just the mother.
 
It’s clear that you haven’t a clue as to what methotrexate actually does, as it certainly doesn’t dissolve cells.

Methotrexate stops the growth of rapidly dividing cells, such as embryonic, fetal, and early placenta cells.

healthlinkbc.ca/kb/content/drugdetail/aa84234.html
How on earth does that make my point any less valid? Stopping growth by chemical means is something you do for the cells of a tumour, an abscess or a cancerous growth.

The very fact that this drug is also used to treat cancer says bucketloads about the mindset behind using it on a human embryo or fetus - ie they are treated as equivalent to a cancer.
 
How on earth does that make my point any less valid? Stopping growth by chemical means is something you do for the cells of a tumour, an abscess or a cancerous growth.

The very fact that this drug is also used to treat cancer says bucketloads about the mindset behind using it on a human embryo or fetus - ie they are treated as equivalent to a cancer.
Not quite, but I do agree, if something inside your body is going to kill you, it’s got to be rid of by way of direct medical intervention.
 
Not quite, but I do agree, if something inside your body is going to kill you, it’s got to be rid of by way of direct medical intervention.
Your comment betrays your attitude. By it you show that you consider a fetus to be a mere ‘something’, morally and in terms of inherent value and worth more or less the equivalent of all the other many ‘somethings’ that endanger a person’s health.

A fetus is NOT the equivalent of all those other somethings, And the mere fact that its existence too is threatening the mother’s health is not to say that we can use any and every means of dealing with that threat that can apply to the other ‘somethings’.

To draw an analogy - if a snail comes into my garden and destroys my cabbages, i can legitimately kill it with poison to remove the threat to my food. If my child, however, did the same, I certainly couldn’t poison my child, nor kill it in any other way for that matter, no matter how many cabbages the child had destroyed.
 
Your comment betrays your attitude. By it you show that you consider a fetus to be a mere ‘something’, morally and in terms of inherent value and worth more or less the equivalent of all the other many ‘somethings’ that endanger a person’s health.

A fetus is NOT the equivalent of all those other somethings, And the mere fact that its existence too is threatening the mother’s health is not to say that we can use any and every means of dealing with that threat that can apply to the other ‘somethings’.

To draw an analogy - if a snail comes into my garden and destroys my cabbages, i can legitimately kill it with poison to remove the threat to my food. If my child, however, did the same, I certainly couldn’t poison my child, nor kill it in any other way for that matter, no matter how many cabbages the child had destroyed.
Yes, but if you mentally deranged child ( so severely mentally ill that they were completely unaware of what they were doing) were trying to stab you to death, surely your Church would allow you to use lethal force to defend yourself?
 
I am not sure if it would make a difference, but the method the chemical uses could be an issue. This chemical is a direct attack the fetus (or tumor when used with cancer). Perhaps if the chemical instead attempted to heal the tube and as a byproduct the fetus would no longer have a source of nutrients and miscarry the Church would have a different position.
 
Yes, but if you mentally deranged child ( so severely mentally ill that they were completely unaware of what they were doing) were trying to stab you to death, surely your Church would allow you to use lethal force to defend yourself?
Yes, and arguably removing the fallopian tube constitutes just that sort of ‘lethal force’.

What you’re not taking into account is that even when using lethal force, the method chosen is of moral significance.

There are all sorts of weapons, for example, that are banned for use by armies under international law. Certain types of chemical weapons being one. Of course it may help a war effort greatly if I can gas all the enemy troops to death, but such a way of killing them is held to be inappropriate for all sorts of reasons, so chemical weapons are banned.

Some types of death are appropriate, as I was saying earlier, for rats and snails, but not for human beings made in the image and likeness of God, however deranged or however much a threat they pose.

Of course there is also the fact that the fetus is in fact doing nothing whatsoever to the mother, essentially. It is merely existing, and it is this mere existence that constitutes the threat. Makes it very different to a case where one is directly attacked, say, by someone wielding a knife or gun.

Let’s tease this out a bit. Say I have a two-year-old child, and that there is definitely not enough food to feed the both of us, due to severe famine or whatnot. And that if I die of starvation, no-one else will be able or willing to look after the child and it will die too. In such a case, exactly as in the case of a fetus, the child is no direct threat, but it is true to say that its existence is incompatible with mine.

By your logic I would be justified in poisoning the child to kill it, so that I might live. Seriously, that is where your logic leads, because the only moral difference is the age of the child.
 
The deranged/unconscious individual is no more aware or culpable for their actions then is the embryo that just happens to have landed in the wrong place.

I am permitted to (directly) kill the assailant but not the embryo?

Chemical weapons are not banned because of the manner in which they kill, but rather the fact that they are difficult to control and contain- if you happen to draw your water from a river that runs near the site of a chemical attack you and everyone in your situation faces dire consequences.
 
By your logic I would be justified in poisoning the child to kill it, so that I might live. Seriously, that is where your logic leads, because the only moral difference is the age of the child.
The child isn’t doing any killing. You’ll starve to death, it has nothing to do with the existence of the child.

Get more food, the child and mother lives.

Nothing can be done for an ectopic pregnancy. There is " no food " that can be obtained in which both will live.
 
Please refrain from posting about this issue if you have never experienced an ectopic pregnancy as it is evident that many of you posting have no idea what you are talking about. This is particularly the case for those who are giving their opinion about the morality of decisions associated with this horrific circumstance presented to some women and families. The tone of many posts is judgemental and it is not for you to judge. Indeed, all that is needed are your prayers. Please have some respect and understanding and be assured that the issue is complex and not black and white. Furthermore, please be assured of the deep thought which goes into decision-making in these circumstances by both husband and wife. These are circumstances which include experiencing all of the following concurrently: shock, heartbreak and confusion when hearing the words “there is nothing in your womb” at a scan (after having tested positive for being pregnant for the first time and experiencing the elation of this a couple of weeks before), being told that you have to stay overnight in hospital as you might rupture and die, being told that your HCG levels are so high that surgery is really the only option and so having to envisage that whatever is inside you will be cut out and thrown away.

Please do not talk about this circumstance in an objective, stone-hearted manner. Please show some compassion. I feel that it is very unfortunate that someone should have to ask for this respect. If this is a Catholic site, that ought to come more naturally.
 
This thread is now closed. Thank you to all who participated.
 
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