Egalitarianism vs. Mary?

[mpartyka]

Here’s another interesting article I recently read:

A First Milestone in the Rise of the Counter-Revolution

In it the author writes:

Pope Pius IX’s definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception…deeply shocked the essentially egalitarian mentality of the French Revolution, which since 1789 had despotically held sway in the West. To see a mere creature elevated so far above all others, enjoying an inestimable privilege from the very first instance of her conception is something that could not and cannot fail to hurt the children of a Revolution which proclaimed absolute equality among men as the basis of all order, justice and goodness. It was painful for both non-Catholics and Catholics, more or less infected with this spirit, to accept the fact that God established in creation and highlighted such outstanding inequality.

I have to admit, this is at least one reason why Marian devotion rankles me. As an American, I tend to take it for granted that “all men are created equal.” Likewise, I’m a believer in equal opportunity, and I don’t like it when the odds are unjustly skewed toward this or that person. It appears to me that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception spits in the face of my beliefs and says clearly and simply, “Silly boy. God does play favorites!” which not only goes against what I thought was biblical teaching (i.e., “God is no respector of persons”) but also injures my understanding of God’s justice. A God who plays favorites – who gives this person over here an unfair advantage over that person over there – is not the kind of God I expect the God of the Bible to be.

What’s at issue here, of course, is the fact that all of us are born with a strike against us called original sin. Wait – all of us but one, that is: namely, Mary. She was given her get-out-of-jail-free card from the first moment of her conception. None of us poor suckers had a chance. So I protest: “What makes her so special?”

Now, some of you may be asking, “What about Jesus? He was without sin, too, but you don’t seem to have a problem with that.” Of course I don’t. Jesus isn’t just anyone – He’s God. Plus, he was born of a virgin, which exempted him from original sin (according to such saints as Pope Leo the Great, anyway). I expect the Son of God to find a loophole that would protect Him from original sin. It would be ridiculous if he hadn’t.

But Mary? Mary wasn’t born of a virgin. She was conceived just like the rest of us, but in her case God played favorites. He gave her – just her – the protection she would need not only to escape the transmission of original sin from her natural conception but also to avoid committing sins her entire life, and you know what? That’s not fair!

Yes, I know I sound like a whiny-baby, but I think my point still stands. If you have been brought up to believe that all people are created equal, it’s incredibly hard to swallow a dogma that effectively says, “No, actually they aren’t.”

Thoughts?

–Mike

 

[Mintaka]

If you’re born in bondage, and God has one person born outside of bondage so she can bring the Key to our bondage into our world…

Why would you resent that? I mean, sheesh, anything to get out of my chains. Inequality, yay!

Besides, I thought everybody was born special and different from everybody else. Why should Mary be the only one who has to be the same?

Besides, my mommy has to be the best mommy in the world, right?

 

[VociMike]

Your profile says “Orthodox” but this view of Mary doesn’t sound Orthodox at all. What’s up?

Anyway, whatever special gifts Mary was given, were given because they were fitting for the mother of God Incarnate.

And as for the rest of us, felix culpa baby, felix culpa.

 

[agangbern]

It was not that God played favorites. It took God many many years to wait for someone who would be so faithful and obedient to God to be worthy as the arch to carry the savior of men.

Mama Mary fulfilled that waiting. So God clothed her with that special mantle of protection fitting as the Mother of God.

Equality does not suppress one’s choice. If one for example has a good voice and is inclined to singing and becomes famous and loved by many if not all, we do not say, “Oh, it’s unfair! Why can’t I sing as that person does?”

Mama Mary possessed all the qualities required to be the Mother of God. So, let’s be happy about it.

Thanks that at last the promise of the birth of the Savior got fulfilled through her.

 

[thistle]

Here’s another interesting article I recently read:

A First Milestone in the Rise of the Counter-Revolution

In it the author writes:

I have to admit, this is at least one reason why Marian devotion rankles me. As an American, I tend to take it for granted that “all men are created equal.” Likewise, I’m a believer in equal opportunity, and I don’t like it when the odds are unjustly skewed toward this or that person. It appears to me that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception spits in the face of my beliefs and says clearly and simply, “Silly boy. God does play favorites!” which not only goes against what I thought was biblical teaching (i.e., “God is no respector of persons”) but also injures my understanding of God’s justice. A God who plays favorites – who gives this person over here an unfair advantage over that person over there – is not the kind of God I expect the God of the Bible to be.

What’s at issue here, of course, is the fact that all of us are born with a strike against us called original sin. Wait – all of us but one, that is: namely, Mary. She was given her get-out-of-jail-free card from the first moment of her conception. None of us poor suckers had a chance. So I protest: “What makes her so special?”

Now, some of you may be asking, “What about Jesus? He was without sin, too, but you don’t seem to have a problem with that.” Of course I don’t. Jesus isn’t just anyone – He’s God. Plus, he was born of a virgin, which exempted him from original sin (according to such saints as Pope Leo the Great, anyway). I expect the Son of God to find a loophole that would protect Him from original sin. It would be ridiculous if he hadn’t.

But Mary? Mary wasn’t born of a virgin. She was conceived just like the rest of us, but in her case God played favorites. He gave her – just her – the protection she would need not only to escape the transmission of original sin from her natural conception but also to avoid committing sins her entire life, and you know what? That’s not fair!

Yes, I know I sound like a whiny-baby, but I think my point still stands. If you have been brought up to believe that all people are created equal, it’s incredibly hard to swallow a dogma that effectively says, “No, actually they aren’t.”

Thoughts?

–Mike

You said it!

 

[agangbern]

Yes, I know I sound like a whiny-baby, but I think my point still stands. If you have been brought up to believe that all people are created equal, it’s incredibly hard to swallow a dogma that effectively says, “No, actually they aren’t.”
Thoughts?

–Mike

All men were created equal not in the sense that they have the same color, same voice, same height, same faces, etc. They are all physical accidents.

They were created equal in the sense that they have equal rights and dignities as persons. Each one who is normal has the freedom and will to choose to be good or to be bad; God or Satan. Mama Mary simply choose to be fully humble and obedient to God to such level that no one could or had ever yet replicated.

 

[Soutane]

Here’s another interesting article I recently read:

A First Milestone in the Rise of the Counter-Revolution

In it the author writes:

I have to admit, this is at least one reason why Marian devotion rankles me. As an American, I tend to take it for granted that “all men are created equal.” Likewise, I’m a believer in equal opportunity, and I don’t like it when the odds are unjustly skewed toward this or that person. It appears to me that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception spits in the face of my beliefs and says clearly and simply, “Silly boy. God does play favorites!” which not only goes against what I thought was biblical teaching (i.e., “God is no respector of persons”) but also injures my understanding of God’s justice. A God who plays favorites – who gives this person over here an unfair advantage over that person over there – is not the kind of God I expect the God of the Bible to be.

What’s at issue here, of course, is the fact that all of us are born with a strike against us called original sin. Wait – all of us but one, that is: namely, Mary. She was given her get-out-of-jail-free card from the first moment of her conception. None of us poor suckers had a chance. So I protest: “What makes her so special?”

Now, some of you may be asking, “What about Jesus? He was without sin, too, but you don’t seem to have a problem with that.” Of course I don’t. Jesus isn’t just anyone – He’s God. Plus, he was born of a virgin, which exempted him from original sin (according to such saints as Pope Leo the Great, anyway). I expect the Son of God to find a loophole that would protect Him from original sin. It would be ridiculous if he hadn’t.

But Mary? Mary wasn’t born of a virgin. She was conceived just like the rest of us, but in her case God played favorites. He gave her – just her – the protection she would need not only to escape the transmission of original sin from her natural conception but also to avoid committing sins her entire life, and you know what? That’s not fair!

Yes, I know I sound like a whiny-baby, but I think my point still stands. If you have been brought up to believe that all people are created equal, it’s incredibly hard to swallow a dogma that effectively says, “No, actually they aren’t.”

Thoughts?

–Mike

But you and I were not created equally with Mary.We were conceived with the stain of original sin.Mary was not.God preserved her from this condition in order that Christ would be conceived in purity.HUGE difference.

We are created equally "under the law"but most certainly not in reality.I wish that I could paint like Michelangelo or play the cello like Yo-Yo ma but God did not create me with these particular talents.Am I their equal?Not in the areas of music and art.But God Loves me as much as He loves them or you.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .Yes, I know I sound like a whiny-

:yup:

but I think my point still stands. If you have been brought up to believe that all people are created equal, it’s incredibly hard to swallow a dogma that effectively says, “No, actually they aren’t.”

Mike, is your faith formed by the given political/philosophical sentiments of a time or by the perennial teaching of the Church? What you express is often seen here among Protestants who are uncomfortable with an understanding of anyone, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Divine Savior and hence Mother of God, being at an advantage - by God’s predilection - in the Trinitarian life. Everyone in their eyes is equally a saint and a sinner, with no one able to be so transformed by grace past a “Jesus and me” moment as to be the true and fully human person he or she was created to be in Christ with the individuality of each soul’s response that this entails.

Further, the discomfiture appears when there is a diminished understanding of what the grace flowing from Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit accomplishes in the faithful soul as he or she progresses in this Christ-life; they do not understand that we are being divinized (“do you not know you have become partakers of the divine nature?”). A Catholic knows (as should an Orthodox) that Mary’s participation in the life of the Trinity is of a higher “status” or “role” than ours or any of the Saints in heaven, canonized or not. The Catholic says, “Yes, this is what we have by grace and since these is what we have the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary - by grace - has it in spades!”

Why is there consternation that she who bore the Son of God would be preserved from Original Sin or that she should rightly be seen in her faithfulness as the New Eve and the true Daughter of Zion and all the other titles and prerogatives given to the Mother of God? A lack of understanding of Mary’s role in salvation history and her prerogatives as Mother of God is an implicit diminution of the reality of Who Jesus is and what His Church is.

Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange’s seminal work on Mary’s role and prerogatives of grace, The Mother of the Saviour, would be a helpful study for you.

 

[GreenLantern]

I have to admit, this is at least one reason why Marian devotion rankles me. As an American, I tend to take it for granted that “all men are created equal.” Likewise, I’m a believer in equal opportunity, and I don’t like it when the odds are unjustly skewed toward this or that person. It appears to me that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception spits in the face of my beliefs and says clearly and simply, “Silly boy. God does play favorites!”

So what do you think was meant by the phrase “Chosen People” in the Old Testament?

 

[LilyM]

All men are created equal, yet not all are billionaires, not all are kings or airforce pilots or rock stars. Not all CAN be billionaires, kings, airforce pilots or rock stars. We are equal in that we have the same inherent dignity as human beings. In terms of wealth, or physical or mental attributes, some work harder, some are born with more, some just have dumb luck that others don’t.

Mary is sinless and in heaven - I too have the ‘joyful hope’ of being sinless and in heaven in her company after I die. So far so equal. The rest of it is distinction without difference. Interesting the part about ‘well I’d expect Jesus to find a loophole, he’s not just anyone’. Well, if the Son of God is not just anyone, neither is the Mother of God!

And for God playing favourites - how come He assumed Enoch and Elijah into heaven without death and not the rest of us? How come He appeared personally to Paul to convince him beyond doubt of His existence and not to us? How come He chose those twelve Apostles and not the rest of us?

He DOES have favourites - get used to it!

 

[anon5216]

So what do you think was meant by the phrase “Chosen People” in the Old Testament?

That sounds like a great topic for another thread.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Here’s another interesting article I recently read:

A First Milestone in the Rise of the Counter-Revolution

In it the author writes:

I have to admit, this is at least one reason why Marian devotion rankles me. As an American, I tend to take it for granted that “all men are created equal.” Likewise, I’m a believer in equal opportunity, and I don’t like it when the odds are unjustly skewed toward this or that person. It appears to me that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception spits in the face of my beliefs and says clearly and simply, “Silly boy. God does play favorites!” which not only goes against what I thought was biblical teaching (i.e., “God is no respector of persons”) but also injures my understanding of God’s justice. A God who plays favorites – who gives this person over here an unfair advantage over that person over there – is not the kind of God I expect the God of the Bible to be.

What’s at issue here, of course, is the fact that all of us are born with a strike against us called original sin. Wait – all of us but one, that is: namely, Mary. She was given her get-out-of-jail-free card from the first moment of her conception. None of us poor suckers had a chance. So I protest: “What makes her so special?”

Now, some of you may be asking, “What about Jesus? He was without sin, too, but you don’t seem to have a problem with that.” Of course I don’t. Jesus isn’t just anyone – He’s God. Plus, he was born of a virgin, which exempted him from original sin (according to such saints as Pope Leo the Great, anyway). I expect the Son of God to find a loophole that would protect Him from original sin. It would be ridiculous if he hadn’t.

But Mary? Mary wasn’t born of a virgin. She was conceived just like the rest of us, but in her case God played favorites. He gave her – just her – the protection she would need not only to escape the transmission of original sin from her natural conception but also to avoid committing sins her entire life, and you know what? That’s not fair!

…
Thoughts?

–Mike

I appreciate your thoughts Mike. But I think there are a few fallacies in your thinking.

First off all we need to embrace the reality that Mary is not unique in her “highly favored” status. Some of the Prophets were given a special calling too. God certainly does have his favorites just as He is entitled to. But that is not a cause for jealousy or contention since the Divine Nature compels through love those so favored to share their super abundance of grace with others (through the communion of the saints). Not one of us is equal in our God given talents, gifts or graces.

St. Paul tells us this often - that each receives a portion of the spirit to have gifts that serve The Church. We are servants and need to remember that. We are one faith but all individual members of One Body. That unequal talent distribution though does nor imply that anyone is deficient not does it imply that we are not all afforded the equal ability or opportunity to ascend to our highest possible human spiritual achievement (which would be perfectly conforming oneself to Christ). It is certainly within the Divine Right to have favorite instruments of His Will just as it is within the right of the music composer to have his favorite instrumentals and predominant themes - each instrument has its part and fits into the entire score. Somehow I don’t imagine that a quiet and soft bassoon or clarinet has the same visceral impact in the more powerful brass sections of Copeland’s Fanfare to Common Man - but it can sure stir the soul in the more quiet passages or in its counterpoint to the predominant theme to keep it all interesting and lively. There are solos and there are harmonies and there is even a time for loud percussion and cadence.

I think the notion that all men are created equal and the underlying egalitarian ideal miss the larger mark of common in spirit. These ideals are misrepresented and I think pander to individualism - which was the same zeitgeist that led to the Protestant Revolution. Equal dignity and respect? Yes. But each equal to every other in role, purpose and ability? No - that’s not realistic. And thank God. That would make us all the same looking as interchangeable general purpose robots with no unique purpose in Creation.

When a person is born into this world they are UNIQUE. God made them in such a way that no other can ever replace that person. This is why it is so profoundly sad when a unique member of creation falls away and rejects God - that soul’s unique contribution and purpose is forever lost. Christ of course makes up that loss with His own grace but it was originally a grace meant to be shared with all others through that one lost soul’s original purpose for being created.

And do not think that Mary was necessarily free from all temptation. I can imagine that Mary, fully aware of who Jesus was might have been very tempted to ask Her Son to come off that cross and destroy His enemies. But she did not.

Jesus just pre-saved Mary and placed a protective full grace in her to make it possible for the new Eve to do her part in offsetting the injustice of Eve and to fulfill that part of scripture.

Every Jewish woman would have thrown herself at the honor of being the one to birth Christ and fulfill prophesy and be the mother of the messiah. But God knew Mary before she was born and for reasons known only to God elected her to be the one to be “blessed above all other women”. We can only trust that God has his reasons and those reasons are in perfect accord with His Justice and do not create a conflict of Divine Nature.

James