Elijah's translation

[Metatron1]

The main things I want to discuss:

1. How should we read Elijah’s translation?
2. If we say he was was unambiguously translated and never experienced bodily death
   a. Does that mean their is no essential significance in the experience of existence as a separate soul?
   b. Is death of the body unnecessary for participation in and redemption through the passion and sacrifice of Christ?

Please excuse my ignorance, I was wondering if the church has anything definitive to say about the implications of translation. I’m also curious about the stance taken by church doctors: and the general ecclesiastical sentiments and their evolution over time.

If bodily translation is possible, then some are able to attain salvation without participating in the perfect eternal sacrifice of Christ by dying a bodily death. One can further infer that existence as a separated soul isn’t necessary for salvation. Does this mean that those alive during the Resurrection will be translated, or at the very least, never die?

Now, this was clearly a singular honor bestowed upon Elijah (perhaps there a ironic rebuke hinted at here: Elijah had prayed for death; and so he will never die). And I’m almost perfectly reconciled to it if we can refer it to Christ, unchanging and eternal, who Elijah is in a special way connected to because he represents “the prophets.” And thus, the translation of Elijah presages the glorification of Christ and, as Christ is both the Law and the prophets. So it seems fitting that the state of blessedness he enjoys should be differentiated in some manner, in a way that mysteriously conduces to Christ’s glory. (cont., 1/2)

 

[Metatron1]

(cont. 2/2)The problems here are pretty obvious. Why was Enoch translated and not Moses? Enoch establishes only a very tenuous precedent: The information we have of him is remarkable; but it accords with other ancient near Eastern genealogies in which the seventh generation is distinguished in some special way. I’m not sure that we can infer anything theologically useful from this. The translation of Moses, on the other hand, makes sense. If the prophets is owned , in a special, by Christ, and is in a special way indicative of him, then why doesn’t the Law receive the same treatment?

(Forgive me for being jocose, but I can imagine that might make things awkward, especially during their communion with the Son of Man. “So…uhhh…you have your original body I see. That must be nice…”)

The other uncomfortable point is Elijah’s status in temporal creation. This is why the rabbis, in their endless spiral of expositions and commentaries on expositions and commentaries, will countenance anecdotes in which a rabbi essentially sets a precedent by alluding to a conversation he had with Elijah. He just kind of shows up and it doesn’t seem like a remarkable occurance. It stands to reason that this communication would be impossible with a separated soul. But Elijah’s ambiguous status means that contact of this sort has at least a logical possibility. (Not to say that he’s actually had converse with the wisest Rabbis or their times–this is obviously false. It just seems like something he could do (and if he resolved to do it, he would certainly make better used to his time than explaining what exactly constitutes an irregular cluster of grapes) if he wanted to and was permitted.

The Blessed in no way abrogate their free choice; their free choice merely corresponds to God’s will. So Elijah would remove anything contrary to God’s will from the realm of possibility, and be genuinely averse to something for the simple reason that Christ forbids it. But…what if it wasn’t forbidden. Mystical appearances are obviously acknowledged by the church (these being dominated, of course by Marian apparitions). But Elijah could just appear as a person straight up.

I’m sure there are solutions to all the difficulties I’ve raised here, and I already see intuitively what they might be, but I’m just looking for clarification and official information from authoritative sources.

 

[Cathoholic]

How should we read Elijah’s translation?

I just read it in light of the Roman Catechism which says (by implication) Enoch and Elijah did not go to Heaven in the sense of the “Beatific Vision”.

Just “heaven” in the sense of “the sky”.

ROMAN CATECHISM . . . Wherefore before His death and Resurrection heaven was closed against every child of Adam. The souls of the just, on their departure from this life, were either borne to the bosom of Abraham; or, . . . were purified in the fire of purgatory.

Since the wages of sin is death, they will both (will?) need to die, just as you and I do, before entering “Heaven” (bodily of course comes at the end of time except for Jesus and Mary), in the sense of the Beatific Vision.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[ReaderT]

The Orthodox Church teaches that Elijah and Enoch are the Two Witnesses in Revelations, who come back from [wherever it is they were translated to, we don’t know], complete the course of their earthly lives, die, and resurrect.

 

[Cruciferi]

According to tradition, neither Elijah nor Enoch are dead. They are in an Earthly Paradise awaiting the arrival of the Antichrist:

Where Is Heaven? Not a Place? Philosophy

What Fr. Ryland is suggesting flies in the face of credible sources. His opinion doesn’t equal fact. Ecclesiasticus 44:16 (Douay-Rheims) Henoch pleased God, and was translated into paradise, that he may give repentance to the nations. Malachi 4:5 See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. St. Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses, Liber 4, Cap. 30 The disciples of the Apostles say that they (Enoch and Elijah) whose living bodies were taken up fro…

 

[Cathoholic]

From a prior post of mine:

JOHN 3:13 (NIV) 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Enoch and Elijah did not go to Gods dwelling place.

ROMAN CATECHISM . . . Wherefore before His death and Resurrection heaven was closed against every child of Adam .

Nor had anyone else entered before our Lord and Savior Jesus opened the gates to God’s dwelling place. (AFTER Jesus opened up Heaven, souls went there and the Blessed Virgin is there body AND soul of course. Souls at the end of time of course all will be getting their bodies back in a new way.)

Jesus Christ and Jesus alone after His death and Resurrection is
the one who opens Heaven to mankind.

At this point many may wonder
WHY the Bible says Elijah DID go to “Heaven”!?

Because in a sense, he did (but not in the sense we often think).

The Bible says Elijah
went to the Hebrew word, “hassamayim” (Greek “ouranos”). (These spellings are mere transliterations so don’t depend upon English spelling for Hebrew/or for that matter Greek words.)

Haš-šā-mā-yim is the Hebrew word for Heaven
AND the sky.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8064.htm

Strong's Hebrew: 8064. שָׁמַ֫יִם (shamayim) -- heaven, sky

“Hassamayim” can be merely “the sky”.

For example rain falls from clouds in the sky.

Here is a passage in Deuteronomy discussing
rain falling from . . . “Hassamyim”.

DEUTERONOMY 11:10-12 10 For the land which you are entering to take possession of it is not like the land of Egypt, from which you have come, where you sowed your seed and watered it with your feet, like a garden of vegetables; 11 but the land which you are going over to possess is a land of hills and valleys, which drinks water by the rain from heaven (haš·šā·ma·yim) , 12 a land which the LORD your God cares for; the eyes of the LORD your God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year to the end of the year.

Parenthetical mine.