EMHC - More Questions

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lorathon

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Recently I posted a thread regarding EMHC questions I had. I am very confused now and here is why.

This is a link to my diocese about EMHC’s
home.catholicweb.com/sbworship/files/EM_Guidelines_English_03_08_07.pdf

Some of the items in here clearly go agianst the Redemptionis Sacramentum.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

Is this ok for the Bishop to change the Mass in these regards.
  1. (106)The Precious Blood is poured after consecration. And the EHMC’s are allowed to pour the Precious Blood into the chalices.
  2. The EHMC’s are allowed to go to the altar during the Sign of Peace which goes against the GIRM 2002 Under EMHC Chapter
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/lit4.shtml

As for #1. The Redemptionis Sacramentum clearly states that this is a Grave abuse. The Bishop states that a request for an indult has been resubmited so we can continue to do this. I know that I saw a link on here to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops stating that the indult was not granted but cannot find the link. Plus the usccb.org web site seems to be down right now.

Any help would be appreciated.
 
lorathon said:
Recently I posted a thread regarding EMHC questions I had. I am very confused now and here is why.

This is a link to my diocese about EMHC’s
home.catholicweb.com/sbworship/files/EM_Guidelines_English_03_08_07.pdf

Some of the items in here clearly go agianst the Redemptionis Sacramentum.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

Is this ok for the Bishop to change the Mass in these regards.
  1. (106)The Precious Blood is poured after consecration. And the EHMC’s are allowed to pour the Precious Blood into the chalices.
  2. The EHMC’s are allowed to go to the altar during the Sign of Peace which goes against the GIRM 2002 Under EMHC Chapter
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/lit4.shtml

As for #1. The Redemptionis Sacramentum clearly states that this is a Grave abuse. The Bishop states that a request for an indult has been resubmited so we can continue to do this. I know that I saw a link on here to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops stating that the indult was not granted but cannot find the link. Plus the usccb.org web site seems to be down right now.

Any help would be appreciated.
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Well just looking at #16 and 17.

EMHC’s may gather in the Sanctuary, maybe at the foot of the altar, but not approach the altar until the priest receives Communion under both forms. They may then approach the altar. Seems ok, could be worded better, maybe “…After the priest receives Holy Communion…”

Pouring the Blood of Christ is prohibited, period. It does say the "Ordinary Minister does this. But they are also not now permitted to do this either, it must be done BEFORE the Consecration. I’m unaware of a request being submitted to Rome, but it is not permitted so it really does not matter who.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
Well just looking at #16 and 17.

EMHC’s may gather in the Sanctuary, maybe at the foot of the altar, but not approach the altar until the priest receives Communion under both forms. They may then approach the altar. Seems ok, could be worded better, maybe “…After the priest receives Holy Communion…”

Pouring the Blood of Christ is prohibited, period. It does say the "Ordinary Minister does this. But they are also not now permitted to do this either, it must be done BEFORE the Consecration. I’m unaware of a request being submitted to Rome, but it is not permitted so it really does not matter who.
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Thank you for the response.

Follow up question or clarification - I am not real sure what the Sanctuary is. We stand behind the priest, between him and the tabernacle during the Sign of Peace. One EMHC will pour the Precious Blood from a glass pitcher into the 6 gold chalices. Then father will give the Eurcharist to all of the EMHC’s who will hold it in their palms until father consumes his. Then we all consume ours. From there father will give out the Precious Blood. After communion the EMHC’s (Precious Blood) will consume any remaining and place the chalices at the side of the altar behind a little wall. One EMHC (Holy Eucharist) will conbine all remaining Body of Christ and place it in the tabernacle. Then after mass 2 EMHC’s will go to the altar and purify the chalices and communion dishes by pouring in clean water and swirling it around then consumming the water. Then wash and dry all with soap and water.

If what you say is true about the pouring of the Precious Blood after consecration. What can I do? The Bishop says that it is ok.

Thanks
 
Br Rich is, as usual, correct in his comments. Not germane to your questions, but:

Who wrote that document!? Someone should teach him that the word *ciboria *is plural, and to use *ciborium *when the singular is called for. (Hurts my eyes :hypno: just to read it)

tee
 
While it can be upsetting these things ultimately are not our responsibility. It will be the priests and bishops who are responsible and may well warm their backsides in purgatory for such disregard for orders from Rome.At least let’s pray that it will be no worse than purgatory.
 
rwoehmke said:
While it can be upsetting these things ultimately are not our responsibility. It will be the priests and bishops who are responsible and may well warm their backsides in purgatory for such disregard for orders from Rome.At least let’s pray that it will be no worse than purgatory.
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I disagree. If you read the Redemptionis Sacramentum it clearly states the following.
[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.
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So i believe it is my duty to at least to lodge a complaint. I am talking to the Parish Liturgist right now.

And as i said (106) regarding the pouring of the Precious Blood is a Grave Matter
[173.] Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.
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lorathon said:
If what you say is true about the pouring of the Precious Blood after consecration. What can I do? The Bishop says that it is ok.

Thanks
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Perhaps a bit of history on another item would be instructive.

In 2005 Archbishop O’Mally (now Cardinal) followed the instructions for washing feet on Holy Thursday - viri selectii - meaning men selected (as opposed to hominem - people). A firestorm ensued. He then wrote to Rome requesting clarification of the instructions. Rome reportedly wrote back that viri selectii meant just what it said - men, as representatives of the Apostles. Rome then concluded the anwer that he should do whatever was pastorally appropriate.

In 2006, he washed the feet of men and women.

O’Malley is not what you would call a liberal. Further, Rome said that the rubric meant what it said, and then, in effect said “we are not going to even raise an eyebrow if you do differently”.

Anyone who knows the history of the last 40 years in terms of liturgical experimentation knows that Rome has been repeatedly inundated with letters complaining of liturgical abberations. Rome has done very little, and done it infrequently, to resolve most of the issues.

I do not suggest that what you have observed is on the same par as washing feet. On the other hand, it is also not on a par with using something other than a wheaten host and wine for the Consecration.

Writing a letter, particularly without further documentation, is an exercise in venting your spleen and not much more. However, if you wish to persue the matter, there are several avenues that may be available.

One might be to video tape the matter (it beats just a letter), and after sending a letter to the pastor requesting a change, the next step would be to send a copy to the appropriate diocesan official (not the bishop), with a copy of the video requesting that the matter be addressed, and that you be responded to in an appropriate amount of time (a week would be laughably short; be realistic). Then to the bishop, with an explanation of what you have done so far with no results, with a polite note that the next letter will be to the appropriate dicastery in Rome with a copy to the bishop. In each letter, you will need to detail the steps to that point, and include a copy of the video.

And while you are at it, if you have any responses or other written information concerining the matter from the diocese, be sure to keep copies along with any other information. Facts work; “he said that the priest said that the bishop said” doesn’t work.

And having gone through that exercise, do not be surprised if you get no satisfaction on the matter at all. Further, there have been individuals who have been sanctioned for doing similar things; do not be surprised if you become the local pariah.

Another route would be to get the services of a Canon lawyer to assist you in the matter. That most likely will require pungling some cash, and you might want to actually see if the lawyer willtake the issue. They will know other avenues that may be availabel to you through Canon Law. Of course, you would want to find a Canon lawyer who actually would be interested in having things done right.
 
otjm:

Well if I wasn’t depressed with the problem I see. I sure am now after reading your post. Thanks for the advise. It seems like climbing a mountain with one leg.
 
lorathon said:
Thank you for the response.

Follow up question or clarification - I am not real sure what the Sanctuary is. We stand behind the priest, between him and the tabernacle during the Sign of Peace. One EMHC will pour the Precious Blood from a glass pitcher into the 6 gold chalices. Then father will give the Eurcharist to all of the EMHC’s who will hold it in their palms until father consumes his. Then we all consume ours. From there father will give out the Precious Blood. After communion the EMHC’s (Precious Blood) will consume any remaining and place the chalices at the side of the altar behind a little wall. One EMHC (Holy Eucharist) will conbine all remaining Body of Christ and place it in the tabernacle. Then after mass 2 EMHC’s will go to the altar and purify the chalices and communion dishes by pouring in clean water and swirling it around then consumming the water. Then wash and dry all with soap and water.

If what you say is true about the pouring of the Precious Blood after consecration. What can I do? The Bishop says that it is ok.

Thanks
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Let me take apart what you just posted.

I am not real sure what the Sanctuary is?

The sanctuary begins at the first step up from the floor of the main church. Usually the altar is raised up 3 steps for the floor level. It is behind where the altar rail is or would be.

We stand behind the priest, between him and the tabernacle during the Sign of Peace.

This is too far into the sanctuary.

One EMHC will pour the Precious Blood from a glass pitcher into the 6 gold chalices.

No one may pour the Precious Blood after Consecration. Even the diocesan document you posted prohibits a EMHC from doing this, even if any pouring were permitted it says an ordinary minister.

Then father will give the Eurcharist to all of the EMHC’s who will hold it in their palms until father consumes his. Then we all consume ours.

This is not permitted, because it mimics (not exactly) the Commmunion of concelebrating priests. The Instruction assumes that prohibiting EMHC’s from even being in the Sanctuary at this time would resolve the issue of this.

From there father will give out the Precious Blood.

Correct

After communion the EMHC’s (Precious Blood) will consume any remaining and place the chalices at the side of the altar behind a little wall.

Allowed

One EMHC (Holy Eucharist) will conbine all remaining Body of Christ and place it in the tabernacle.

This is not permitted, either the deacon or priest must do this.

Then after mass 2 EMHC’s will go to the altar and purify the chalices and communion dishes by pouring in clean water and swirling it around then consumming the water. Then wash and dry all with soap and water.

This was permitted if a priest or deacon cannot do this, but the permission I believe has expired.

If what you say is true about the pouring of the Precious Blood after consecration. What can I do? The Bishop says that it is ok.

It’s not permitted and the Bishop if he allows it is wrong to do so.
 
lorathon said:
I disagree. If you read the Redemptionis Sacramentum it clearly states the following.

So i believe it is my duty to at least to lodge a complaint. I am talking to the Parish Liturgist right now.

And as i said (106) regarding the pouring of the Precious Blood is a Grave Matter
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There are a lot of things that are our duty, but as lay people it is about as effective as pushing on a rope to move something. There have been some exceptions, but by an large you just get a reputation as being “one of those”.
 
Hey we are in the same diocese, and the same good old abuses abound in my parish.

The best way to combat this is to make it public. The abuses continue as people who do them enjoy feeling good in front of people. So expose them, they pander to people so make it public and it forces them to change unless they have chased out and intimidated all who would object to abuse.
I let people know about it and it helps but to reach more people that is more difficult and can cause problems.

I am not sure how to do this nicely yet, but I am working on it.

In Christ
Scylla
 
Fortunately, our diocese has encouraged the implementation of the GIRM. Unfortunately, it seems to do almost nothing in encouraging its implementation since the initial meetings explaining the clarifications and changes. Many parishes follow the clearly disallowed practices mentioned. Even for a very large Mass, the Cathedral liturgies use many chalices - smaller than the primary chalice – which are filled before the Consecration. However, no one kneels during any part of the Mass, nor does the celebrant genuflect after the Consecration.
 
G_S said:
Even for a very large Mass, the Cathedral liturgies use many chalices - smaller than the primary chalice – which are filled before the Consecration.
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:confused: Are you questioning the wisdom of administering the precious blood at a large celebration? There may be legitimate differences of opinion about that. Otherwise, what you describe is a proper way to prepare multiple chalices.

tee
 
tee_eff_em said:
:confused: Are you questioning the wisdom of administering the precious blood at a large celebration? There may be legitimate differences of opinion about that. Otherwise, what you describe is a proper way to prepare multiple chalices.

tee
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By no means. I was pointing out that the GIRM was being properly followed in regard to pouring the wine but not in regard to kneeling. The consecration in the glass flagon method used to be used.
 
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