Emhc

[Cristiano]

CRW, your parish is much different then than the majority of Parishes except for the Altar Girl thing, which isn’t too big a deal.

I keep seeing generalizations about the majority of EMHCs, parishes etc! These are very bold statements that should be supported by clear references. How we feel about things is our personal thing, and there is nothing wrong about having strong feelings especially when we have the impression that our Church is being treated poorly by outsiders or insiders. I often tend to react the same way as you do, but I had to learn that I was turning into a Pharisee instead of learning to react with charity to what I perceived as other people’s mistakes. I also apologize if I am doing the same with you.

 

[Fergal]

Maybe its because the position of acolyte is a ministry whereas the EMHC’s are there simply to help the Priest.

An alb is fitting for the Acolytes but never for an EMHC. And by the way the word MINISTER in EMHC does not mean they have a MINISTRY. They are distributers called in to help whenever the need arises.

 

[Cristiano]

Half the priests out there, especially Franciscans it seems, wear flipflops anyways, though not usually jeans as well

Sandals not flip-flops please!!!

This summer I was kneeling behind some nuns and I noticed that under the sole of their sandals there was the imprint “demonio” (Devil in Italian). At the beginning I thought that it was surely a strange brand name for sandals worn by religious orders. Then the Holy Spirit got my brain back in motion, and I remembered the theological meaning of having such a name under the sole of a believer’s sandals. I haven’t noticed that kind of sandals in almost 40 years.

 

[scylla]

I keep seeing generalizations about the majority of EMHCs, parishes etc! These are very bold statements that should be supported by clear references. How we feel about things is our personal thing, and there is nothing wrong about having strong feelings especially when we have the impression that our Church is being treated poorly by outsiders or insiders. I often tend to react the same way as you do, but I had to learn that I was turning into a Pharisee instead of learning to react with charity to what I perceived as other people’s mistakes. I also apologize if I am doing the same with you.

I can only speak from personal experience and from the general (name removed by moderator)ut from people from this forum that reflect many parishes out there.
I do have a tendancy to turn into a Pharisee which is wrong if I am commiting abuses and then recommending others to change. I can only think of one thing I do and I will describe it as this hypocrisy is necessary at the moment.
I am involved in my parish and teach which would be stopped if I exhibited too orthodox beliefs publically. So if I kneel to recieve the Eucharist and kneel at the elevation I would be singled out, as I have seen it.
I must be involved and help people realize that Jesus is there and we should have respect so I kneel in my heart. (as I heard someone say once)
Until I can help others realize who is really there and why we should have utmost respect I must teach truth and minimally exhibit it to avoid problems with people in my parish.

Now that is as much a “Pharisee” that I am and I do admit that. That doesn’t mean that correcting people and promoting truth is not charitable. What isn’t charitable is allowing abuses and people to go to Hell without saying anything. Allowing people to feel good for the sake of a misguided charity is evil in itself.

This is why my girls will never be Altar Girls but are most welcome in the choir, Altar Rosary guild, Bible Study, as it would uncharitable to use them as pawns as a lot of progressives do. Altar Girls now should be encouraged to seek vocations as nuns and not be discouraged in their spiritual life as some feminazi wanted to use them to further an agenda.

Back to EMHC’s, they should be encouraged to live out their vocation to support priests, bringing the Holy Eucharist to those outside the Church and encourage vocations. They should be corrected if they do (in my experience) not live out the temporary position as needed.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[FredM]

Maybe its because the position of acolyte is a ministry whereas the EMHC’s are there simply to help the Priest.

An alb is fitting for the Acolytes but never for an EMHC. And by the way the word MINISTER in EMHC does not mean they have a MINISTRY. They are distributers called in to help whenever the need arises.

Why is an alb not fitting for a EMHC?

I am curious if there is a rubric or instruction on this. I come from an Anglican background and it has been disconcerting to see all of the lay people, standing behind the celebrant while he communicates, going to the tabernacle, putting things on and off the altar. We have two priests but they are rarely in the building at the sametime, although often the one not celebrating is there to greet after mass.
I suppose if he came a few minutes early to help give out HC that it would be “extraordinary” lol.

Fred

 

[CRW]

Why is an alb not fitting for a EMHC?

I am curious if there is a rubric or instruction on this. I come from an Anglican background and it has been disconcerting to see all of the lay people, standing behind the celebrant while he communicates, going to the tabernacle, putting things on and off the altar. We have two priests but they are rarely in the building at the sametime, although often the one not celebrating is there to greet after mass.
I suppose if he came a few minutes early to help give out HC that it would be “extraordinary” lol.

Fred

General Instruction of the Roman Missal, 339: In the dioceses of the United States of America, acolytes, altar servers, lector, and other lay ministers may wear the alb or other suitable vesture or other appropriate and dignified clothing.

For those that posted the otherwise, the alb in the USA is not reserved for the priest or deacon.

 

[CRW]

Maybe its because the position of acolyte is a ministry whereas the EMHC’s are there simply to help the Priest.

An alb is fitting for the Acolytes but never for an EMHC. And by the way the word MINISTER in EMHC does not mean they have a MINISTRY. They are distributers called in to help whenever the need arises.

Not true. See General Instruction of the Roman Missal, number 339, post 26.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

I don’t recall if they are considered lay-men. But I know for a fact that acolytes are not a minor order.

The minor order are the Deacons, the major order are the priests.

And by the way I think its Diaconate not Deaconry.

Actually, the classical Minor Orders (supressed by Paul VI) were Porter, Lector, Exorcist, and Acolyte. The Diaconate was always a Major Order. Deacons receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders and are clergy. The Sub-Diaconate also no longer exists in the Latin Rite, but when it did, I believe it was also considered a Major Order, although I don’t believe sub-deacons were considered clergy.

 

[Damascus]

Why is it that Extraordinary Members of Holy Communion get to dress in their Sunday whatever clothes at Mass and the acolytes vest in albs?

Seems to me the acolytes are out of place, in their nice white albs with jeans and flip flops showing underneath. They would look more natural as street people.

**I used to think that street clothing was disrespectful but I’m trying to get over that and see the majesty in having a lay person in street clothes at the tabernacle.**Fred

This is very

Sorry but its just not adding up in my mind.
most of these posts here are simply avoiding addressing this remark.
Instead everyone is obsessing over proper terminology of various persons labels and what they are properly called!

Why is this comment not being addressed?

 

[CRW]

This is very

Sorry but its just not adding up in my mind.
most of these posts here are simply avoiding addressing this remark.
Instead everyone is obsessing over proper terminology of various persons labels and what they are properly called!

Why is this comment not being addressed?

EMHC could wear the alb: General Instruction of the Roman Missal, 339: In the dioceses of the United States of America, acolytes, altar servers, lector, and **other lay ministers **may wear the alb or other suitable vesture or other appropriate and dignified clothing. The Bishop or priest could require it but have chosen not to do so. Why? Until they exercise their service, they (EMHC) remain in the naive. The altar servers and acolytes perform their service in the sanctuary and wear the appropriate clothing.

 

[Damascus]

EMHC could wear the alb: General Instruction of the Roman Missal, 339: In the dioceses of the United States of America, acolytes, altar servers, lector, and **other lay ministers **may wear the alb or other suitable vesture or other appropriate and dignified clothing. The Bishop or priest could require it but have chosen not to do so. Why? Until they exercise their service, they (EMHC) remain in the naive. The altar servers and acolytes perform their service in the sanctuary and wear the appropriate clothing.

Thank you so much. I thought I would have to wait for retirement to find out.

 

[Fergal]

Not true. See General Instruction of the Roman Missal, number 339, post 26.

I did. It states 339. In the dioceses of the United States of America, acolytes, altar servers, lectors, and other lay ministers may wear the alb or other suitable vesture or other appropriate and dignified clothing.

You missed my point completely. An EMHC is not a MINISTER in the proper sense of the word. EMHC’s are to be used in an extraordinary circumstance, when it is impossible due either to ill health or huge numbers of the faithful to distribute Holy Communion in a timely fashion. An EMHC is not a lay minister and so the above section of the GIRM verifies what I said.

The word MINISTER here should be used in the verbal sense meaning ‘to distribute’ and not used in the sense of a noun i.e.

Heres what the dictionary explains the word Minister to stand for:
*–noun *1.a person authorized to conduct religious worship; member of the clergy; pastor. 2.a person authorized to administer sacraments, as at Mass. 3.a person appointed by or under the authority of a sovereign or head of a government to some high office of state, esp. to that of head of an administrative department: *the minister of finance. *4.a diplomatic representative accredited by one government to another and ranking next below an ambassador. Compare envoy1 (def. 1). 5.a person acting as the agent or instrument of another.

This is not what the Church has in mind when it appoints its EMHC’s. If you disagree with this then go back to the documents of the Church where the are to be found. The above understanding of Minister could never fit in with the role of an EMHC.

*–verb (used with object) *6.to administer or apply: *to minister the last rites. *7.Archaic. to furnish; supply. *–verb (used without object) *8.to perform the functions of a religious minister. 9.to give service, care, or aid; attend, as to wants or necessities.: *to minister to the needs of the hungry. *10.to contribute, as to comfort or happiness.

This is what the Church had in mind when it coined the phrase EMHC.

 

[CRW]

I did. It states ***339.
The word MINISTER here should be used in the verbal sense meaning ‘to distribute’ and not used in the sense of a noun i.e.

Heres what the dictionary explains the word Minister to stand for:
*–noun ****1.a person authorized to conduct religious worship; member of the clergy; pastor. 2.a person authorized to administer sacraments, as at Mass. 3.a person appointed by or under the authority of a sovereign or head of a government to some high office of state, esp. to that of head of an administrative department: *the minister of finance. *4.a diplomatic representative accredited by one government to another and ranking next below an ambassador. Compare envoy1 (def. 1). 5.a person acting as the agent or instrument of another.

This is not what the Church has in mind when it appoints its EMHC’s. If you disagree with this then go back to the documents of the Church where the are to be found. The above understanding of Minister could never fit in with the role of an EMHC.

*–verb (used with object) *6.to administer or apply: *to minister the last rites. *7.Archaic. to furnish; supply. *–verb (used without object) *8.to perform the functions of a religious minister. 9.to give service, care, or aid; attend, as to wants or necessities.: *to minister to the needs of the hungry. *10.to contribute, as to comfort or happiness.

This is what the Church had in mind when it coined the phrase EMHC.

The Instruction on the Eucharist, Redemptionis Sacramentum, approved by the Holy See and Pope John Paul II, paragraph 151; Only out of true necessity is there to be a recourse to the assistance of **extraordinary ministers **in the celebration of the Liturgy. Such recourse is not intended for the sake of a fuller participation of the laity but rather by its very nature, is supplementary and provisional…It must therefore never be the case that in parish Priests alternate indiscriminately in shifts of pastoral service with Deacons or laypersons, thus confusing what is specific to each. Furthermore, it is never licit for laypersons to assume the role or the vesture of a Priest or a Deacon or other clothing similar to such vesture. (paragraph 153).

I agree that lay can never be a substitute for the ministerial Priesthood or the ministry of the Deacon or classified as sacred ministers. I also agree with your noun and verb description.

However, in its limited role and title of “Extraordinary Minister” as described above, the Bishop or Priest can approved the wearing of the alb.

Paragraph 160 states: Let the diocesan Bishop give renewed consideration to the practice in recent years regarding this matter, and if circumstance call for it, let him correct it or define it more precisely. Where such extraordinary ministers are appointed in in a widespread manner out of necessity, the diocesan Bishop should issue special norms by which he determines the manner in which this function is to be carried out in accordance with the law, bearing in mind the tradition of the Church.

As the title implies, “Extraordinary” does not imply “Ordinary” minister or minister as one who minister as an offical position of the Church. The title was specifically chosen; Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion" to fit the situation and office of its duties, and not confuse it with the ordinary duties of the sacred ministers. It was never intended as a ministry as you have correctly described above. However, within the guidelines establish in my post, the Bishop or Priest can permit them to wear the alb (this also applies to the Lector and choir); IMHO.

I would be first in line to say that EMHC have become routine operations within the Church and in many situations, are not required based on the norms and Instructions of the Eucharist approved by John Paul II. Additionally, this is also the reason that they are not wearing the alb, to ensure that they maintain the Extraordinary from the Ordinary. Therefore, man and woman are seen serving their duties in “Street” clothing, the original question of the post; I believe. As an example: Our Church list EMHC, Lector, Choir, Ushers, etc as special ministries available for our lay to volunteer to be members. Granted not ordained or sacred but special.

 

[scylla]

It really seems appropriate for EMHC’s to wear street clothes.
It is a good reflection of their duty.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[CRW]

It really seems appropriate for EMHC’s to wear street clothes.
It is a good reflection of their duty.

In Christ
Scylla

I totally agree and would most likely step down from the position if it required otherwise. There is enough resentment for EMHC as it is now, they don’t need another reason to bring on the hounds.

 

[FredM]

Noon Mass at an incredibly beautiful church in Manhattan today had around 40 people. The cup was not offered at HC but the EMHC helped administer the hosts. He also servered as the acolyte. He was wearing blue jeans. This wasn’t your nicely pressed jeans with a sports jacket or sweater either. It was a routine plaid shirt and old jeans.

I just don’t get it.

Fred

 

[FredM]

I totally agree and would most likely step down from the position if it required otherwise. There is enough resentment for EMHC as it is now, they don’t need another reason to bring on the hounds.

I don’t know all the reasons you feel resentment. But I do feel that in the post I just made the EMHC was being disrespectful to our Lord and the people. If the pastor doesn’t care what someone looks like I doubt the person will care what I think.

Fred

 

[palmas85]

I totally agree and would most likely step down from the position if it required otherwise. There is enough resentment for EMHC as it is now, they don’t need another reason to bring on the hounds.

Well by all means lets institute a strict dress code and get rid of a few of them. We’ll keep some, a few should do, for distribution to the homebound and ill I guess, as long as they don’t try to become junior, unordained, wannabe Priests that is

Bring on the hounds, ruff ruff,bow wow:thumbsup:

 

[CRW]

I don’t know all the reasons you feel resentment. But I do feel that in the post I just made the EMHC was being disrespectful to our Lord and the people. If the pastor doesn’t care what someone looks like I doubt the person will care what I think.

Fred

Fred,

I am not resentful for what you said in your post. Actually I agree that bluejeans, even in a weekday Mass is not appropriate until a priests once said that most of the people at the 7 am Mass are dressed in their work clothes and head directly to work after Mass. He prefer them attending and serving Mass, then not taking the time to do so. We live in an impossible world it appears. I always wear a suite to Mass and have actually been question if I thought I was better then the others or trying to show them up. No, this is the way my parents raised me to respect the King of Kings.

We were very, I mean very poor growing up with seven in the house to feed, limited work for my Dad in the coal mines; but we always had our Sunday best reserved for Mass.

Resentful no, but I suspect in all Christian charity, that many are and will always be against EMHC, regardless of their dress, the bishop directions or the Holy See. If I had my wish, and if it was legal, I would stay home, watch the Mass on EWTN and depend on someone to bring me Holy Communion. No fuss, silence before and after Mass, and total reverence.

My question: Should those receiving Holy Communion be dressed in bluejeans, flip flops, shorts, t-shirts, Halter tops, tops that show 2/3 of their stomach and much more. It seems like most woman are now trying to become plumbers because if you kneel behind them you differently see their backside or underwear.

 

[dympnha]

One of these days the EMHC idea will be scrapped because there is no honestly good reason for them to exist. The priest can give Communion and if makes Mass last a few seconds longer so be it. However, getting rid of them will be a hard battle. They have a lot of power in most parishes and will not go quietly.