Engaged and both of us new Catholics

[DL82]

I am engaged to be married, popped the question about a month ago after an 8 month courtship.

I was a member of the Church of England, but converting, and my fiancee is being received into the Church at Easter. I have been reading all I can about Catholic doctrine on sex and relationships, and am finding some of it quite hard to understand.

St Augustine, in of the Good of Marriage suggests that a married couple commit venial sin every time they have sex purely for pleasure, i.e. more than is required for child-bearing. Is this the doctrine of the Church? How do I know when reading the Church Fathers what I have to believe, what is ok to believe, and what, if anything, isn’t? I am used to a much more literalist approach to the Bible with much less emphasis on Tradition. How does a Tradition become a teaching, and a teaching a doctrine? Is it only doctrine if it’s in the Catechism? How do we live in perfect obedience to the Church? How do I reconcile this with the realities of life where I can see that following a ‘minor’ aspect of the practice of our faith would contradict the Golden Rule, or cause major harm or offence?

Basically, my fiancee and I are deeply in love, and our unique gifts complement eachother very well. We are perfect for eachother, and I feel called to her, and a unique joy in being with her. I love her. But I don’t notice anything about love (of that kind) in the Catechism. I also know that she disagrees with the doctrine of the Church on issues such as birth control (she wants a family, but not yet, and also there may be dangerous medical complications if she was to bear children) and non-penetrative sexual acts. I know that if we marry, she may lead me into temptation. Should I leave her even though it would break both of our hearts? I guess I could find a good woman who is obedient to the doctrine of the Church who would agree to raise my children, and the sacrament of marriage would give us the grace to continue in life-long fidelity, but I could never love somebody the way I love my fiancee. Can faith really be that heartless?

I know there is a bar on vocations to the priesthood among new believers, for I think it’s 3 years. Should we both, as recent converts, be thinking of a bar on the vocation to marriage, at least for long enough for each of us to really get to grips with what the Church teaches that a marriage truly is?

 

[queen_anne78]

Well…there are a lot of things in your post to respond to…but first, congrats on your engagement, and welcome home to the Catholic Church

Have you looked in the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) beginning w/ section 1601…I find it quite beautiful and instructive. Also, begin with section 2331 (under the heading of the 6th commandment). This section deals more directly with human sexuality and what chastity is. Be sure to make it through to section 2360…which goes in depth about the love of husband and wife and married sexual love. From this section:

2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146

That quote is from Pius XII, he was pontiff during WW2. Anyways, I know this is a lot of reading, and I am about to suggest more but since you’re reading the Church Fathers, you sound scholarly and able to handle it. I HIGHLY reccomend reading “Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West WITH your fiancee. Also, if you go to his website he gives GREAT talks…my personal fav you can find by clicking “CDs, DVDs, cassette tapes” then “audio/video”. The talk is entitled “And the two become one”. Listen to it with your fiancee, and pray about it. Also good is Pope John Paul II’s “Love and Responsibility” (penned while he was not yet pope…Karol Wojtyla).

I would challenge your fiancee’s thinking on birth control…if she is indeed coming into the Church at Easter, she obviously feels that Holy Mother Church is true in that she wants to be Catholic. Part of being Catholic is recognizing the Church’s authority and ability to teach truly on faith and morals…including the teaching on birth control. Holy Mother Church cannot err in such a matter. For me, looking over the materials I just suggested, and finally understanding WHY the Church teaches what she does, made a world of difference. Also, I would say that you both should find an NFP teacher that you can take classes with, and your fiancee can begin to chart her cycles now. Not only will this help when you are married, but often medical problems that drs are quick to prescribe the Pill for are controllable by other means. Have her look at www.ccli.org and www.creightonmodel.com (esp that second site…Creighton is EXCELLENT for diagnosing and treating problems).

As I said, congrats on your enagement, and I hope that this time can be used for solid marriage prep for you and your fiance…the questions you are asking are CRUCIAL to both your spiritual journeys as Catholics and to recieving grace in your marriage.

 

[hasikelee]

Congratulations! That is so romantic and you two must be twice as happy!

You are wondering what you have to “believe” and what is simply opinion or meandering. Well, go with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Everything in that book is what you have to accept as Catholic teaching.

Also, when reading such historical authors, be sure to keep in mind that these people were not instantly perfect or all-around experts. They were grappling for the truth and learning to become better people just like us. As you read more on an individual’s writings and life, you might find that their personal views change as they develop.

The main thing to make sure you are on the path is to follow the CCC and listen to what the Pope has to say.

 

[1ke]

I am engaged to be married, popped the question about a month ago after an 8 month courtship.

Eight months is not a very long courtship.

St Augustine, in of the Good of Marriage suggests that a married couple commit venial sin every time they have sex purely for pleasure, i.e. more than is required for child-bearing. Is this the doctrine of the Church?

No

How do I know when reading the Church Fathers what I have to believe, what is ok to believe, and what, if anything, isn’t? I am used to a much more literalist approach to the Bible with much less emphasis on Tradition. How does a Tradition become a teaching, and a teaching a doctrine?

The Fathers are instructive, but not infallible.

I suggest reading Church documents such as the Catechism, Casti Connubii, Humanae Vitae, etc, which are reliable teachings of the Magesterium.

I also recommend some more contemporary authors, such as Christopher West, who would be easier to understand than some of the Fathers.

Is it only doctrine if it’s in the Catechism?

The doctrines of the Church are contained in the Catechism, but no it’s not doctrine “only” if it’s in the Catechism. Remember, the Catechism is a teaching tool and it is a summary of beliefs, doctrines, and practices. The source documents it quotes are quite lengthy.

How do we live in perfect obedience to the Church?

We assent to the Church’s teachings, even when we don’t yet fully understand them andwe keep praying and studying. The Church cannot err, so when we disagree… we need to keep studying because it’s not the Church that is wrong about the subject… it’s us.

How do I reconcile this with the realities of life where I can see that following a ‘minor’ aspect of the practice of our faith would contradict the Golden Rule, or cause major harm or offence?

The Truth cannot lead us into sin or error. I don’t think I understand your question fully.

Basically, my fiancee and I are deeply in love, and our unique gifts complement eachother very well. We are perfect for eachother, and I feel called to her, and a unique joy in being with her. I love her.

There is more to marriage than this.

But I don’t notice anything about love (of that kind) in the Catechism.

It’s there. However, love is not a gushy feeling, it’s an act of the will.

I also know that she disagrees with the doctrine of the Church on issues such as birth control

Well, that is problematic both from the standpoint of marrying her, and her joining the Church. Contraception is mortally sinful.

(she wants a family, but not yet, and also there may be dangerous medical complications if she was to bear children) and non-penetrative sexual acts.

If one has a just reason to postpone a pregnancy-- and serious medical issues are a just reason-- then the couple can practice periodic continence by learning a method of NFP. What one cannot do is contracept.

As to activities other than intercourse, yes these are wrong when separated from a full act of intercourse.

I know that if we marry, she may lead me into temptation. Should I leave her even though it would break both of our hearts?

I suggest backing off of engagement for a longer discernment period. If she cannot become reconciled to church teaching and you marry her anyway-- you will be back here posting all your problems and all your sorrow that you and your wife are not on the same page and she wants you to sin by contracepting, etc.

So, please, go into this with your eyes open and either back away from it or postpone marriage until she is reconciled. You may end up determining that you are not meant to marry each other, or she may come to understand and embrace church teaching.

 

[1ke]

I guess I could find a good woman who is obedient to the doctrine of the Church who would agree to raise my children, and the sacrament of marriage would give us the grace to continue in life-long fidelity, but I could never love somebody the way I love my fiancee.

Oh, you are quite mistaken about that. You certainly feel like you cannot “love” anyone as much as her, but truly that is not so.

Can faith really be that heartless?

I’m sorry, but this is totally melodramatic. The Faith is not “heartless”. The Church teaches all truth and guides people to Heaven.

If people choose to walk down a foolish path then that is their choice.

If you form your relationships based on the faith, then you do not have this problem of becoming emotionally attached to someone who disagrees with church teaching, which in turns blinds you to what is truly good for your soul, and leads you to the conclusion that it is the Faith that is “cruel”.

No, it’s the choices we make that are cruel to us when we realize we have chosen badly.

I’m sure your fiance is a nice person, but really this is too serious an issue to overlook. It will be at the CORE of your marriage.

Should we both, as recent converts, be thinking of a bar on the vocation to marriage, at least for long enough for each of us to really get to grips with what the Church teaches that a marriage truly is?

I think you should definitely back off of wedding plans and discern more. I don’t think there’s a specific amount of time, but as a new convert it’s not a bad idea to learn more before entering into a life long commitment with someone who doesn’t share your beliefs.

 

[katieq]

Hello,

Congratulations on your Engagement. I recommend buying a copy of “Naked Without Shame” by Christopher West and a study guide and listening to it with your fiance (it’s a little expensive, but well worth it). I believe this may also help with the temptation issues you mentioned in your other post. If you feel that doing it alone will be a tempation to sin, maybe invite another engaged or married couple to join you, or a single friend who is interested in "theology of the body. www.giftfoundation.org

 

[lotusblossom]

Congratulations on your engagement and coming into the Catholic family!

I would agree with all the previous posters and would like to add a couple thoughts.

First, in reading St. Augustine’s On the Good of Marriage, you have to understand, he practiced Manicheism (spelling?) before he converted to Christianity, so his thoughts are highly influenced by this. And like someone else said, Church fathers are not infallible.

Secondly, I would second the recommendation for purchasing and listening to Christopher West’s Naked without Shame series. I’d also recommend reading The Good News about Sex and Marriage by him as well. It explains quite thoroughly our sexuality and is in question and answer form, so it’s easy to read and find a topic you may be confused or know little about. Also, on a more theological view of marriage, Fulton Sheen’s Three to Get Married is excellent too! My husband and I read a lot of books in preparation for marriage when we were engaged and it helped us grow so much closer together and to Christ!

Also, have you and your fiance looked into practicing Natural Family Planning? That is the best (and Church-approved) way of postponing children if the NEED arises. Plus, it’ll be healthier for your fiance in the long run. You can go to www.ccli.org or check with your parish to see if they offer classes. I HIGHLY recommend taking NFP classes together because I think it will help you understand, not only the Church’s teachings better and why there’s no contraception allowed, but also it will help you understand her fertility and body better, bring about more communication, and helps the bond grow between you two.

 

[DL82]

“And like someone else said, Church fathers are not infallible.”

OK, so we’ve established I don’t “have” to believe it.

But if we were to live as if the passage from Augustine quoted in the OP were true, being the opinion of a respected Doctor of the Church, and not having been denounced as heresy, that wouldn’t be a bad thing in itself, right? If we were to agree to abstain except when we desired procreation, that wouldn’t be a sin, right?

I still have quite a puritanical side from my Protestant upbringing, and I find a kind of freedom in that. The precision with which the Catholic Church defines its’ moral theology I find gloriously freeing, but desire a greater measure of discipline in my own life. I hope that as time goes on my fiancee will begin to understand and accept that. At the same time, I want to adapt to her more liberal understanding of life and faith too. I want to learn from her how to live our faith joyfully in the moment, but I hope I can teach her something worth learning too.

Thanks for all your advice.

 

[katieq]

Abstaining except when explicitly desiring procreation (aka. intentionally having sex when the woman is fertile only) would be to deny the full meaning of the gift of intercourse.

God intended intercourse to be open to life (the reason that the Church does not allow artificial birth control). However, there is also a unitive aspect. It is the reaffirmation of your wedding covenant, designed in its very essence (as I understand from Theology of the Body and other writings) to mirror as closely as possible the love expressed in the Trinity. To refrain except for in those instances when the couple would DEFINETALLY get pregnant (and this may not be what you mean) would be to deny the unitive aspect and disregard one of God’s designs for man.

I really recommend getting “Naked Without Shame”, as it explains all of these questions (procreation only, artificial birth control, God’s intention for intercourse, etc.) in depth and in an easily understood format. Hopes this helps.

God bless,
Kate

P.S. I intend to be fully in line with Church teaching here, so if I have misstated, please someone correct me…it’s probably due to lack of clarity on my part.

 

[1ke]

But if we were to live as if the passage from Augustine quoted in the OP were true, being the opinion of a respected Doctor of the Church, and not having been denounced as heresy, that wouldn’t be a bad thing in itself, right? If we were to agree to abstain except when we desired procreation, that wouldn’t be a sin, right?

Not exactly. Continence is not the natural state of married persons-- except by mutual agreement.

CCC 2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.

2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."143

Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, “Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety.” So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, “Blessed are you, O God of our fathers. . . . You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support. From the two of them the race of mankind has sprung. You said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; let us make a helper for him like himself.’ I now am taking this kinswoman of mine, not because of lust, but with sincerity. Grant that she and I may find mercy and that we may grow old together.” And they both said, “Amen, Amen.” Then they went to sleep for the night.144
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.

And from Casti Connubii,

1. By this same love it is necessary that all the other rights and duties of the marriage state be regulated as the words of the Apostle: “Let the husband render the debt to the wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband,”[28] express not only a law of justice but of charity.

So, you could abstain completely-- but only by **mutual **consent and only so long as the consent is mutual.

I still have quite a puritanical side from my Protestant upbringing,

I suggest you strive to more fully embrace the Catholic understanding of conjugal relations.

I hope that as time goes on my fiancee will begin to understand and accept that.

Remember, total abstinence can only be by mutual agreement.

 

[Viki59]

Please look into NFP. I used birth control pills for ten years, and deeply regret it, knowing what I know now.
In addition, the pills mimic the state of pregnancy, decreasing the woman’s libido for the duration. When I went off them, I was astounded to realize how they had dampened my emotions as well. I felt like I had been on tranquilizers for all those years. Then, there are the babies that may have been aborted by the pill . . .you don’t want those on your conscience.

The church has excellent rules for a reason.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Question-
The OP talked about non-penetrive sexual acts. We learned in NFP that as long as the acts don’t result in orgasm and are used to lead up to genital intercourse, there is nothing wrong with them.
We actually got a lovely pamphlet on this. If i can find my folder, I will post the name, etc…

 

[jc-servant]

I read a really good book that explains about discernment of God’s will in our lives, discernment of our vocation and discernment about a specific person we think might be right for our spouse. If you get through the first steps in a courtship, then it tells about doing mutual discernment before marrying. It is available online at some Catholic sites and amazon.com

I would highly suggest reading this book or something similar and then spending time in discernment while also getting some spiritual direction from a good priest or deacon who is faithful to church teaching and knowledgeable enough to explain the teachings to you.

The Exclamation: The Wise Choice of a Spouse for Catholic Marriage by Patricia Wrona

Janet Smith is an excellent educator about marriage, sexuality and contraception in light of church teachings. I’ve included a link to one article by her, but she has books and tapes also. I was blessed to have her teach our classes on the subjects when I was studying to come into the church back in 2000-2001.

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0003.html