Engaging in Debate with Atheists

[o_senhor_falado]

Hi folks,

I’m still new to the site and I’m really liking it so far. I’m seeking a little advice in the following matters:

I’ve recently engaged in a heavy debate with an atheist friend. He’s a good guy, but completely dismisses any possibility of His existence. I knew throughout the whole debate that I wasn’t going to convince him and he wasn’t going to sway me. Also, I know the purpose of evangelization isn’t to win arguments; it’s simply to plant the seed and let the Holy Spirit do the real work. I accept that, but I’m wondering whether it’s even worthwhile to engage in debate with atheists when they arrogantly claim the full authority of science and reason and dismiss belief in God as irrational. I left the conversation feeling as if I had done something wrong, like Catholic apologetics is futile in such a morally relativistic society. I suppose my real dilemma is that it really hit me how taxing it can be to defend your faith against people who know so little about Christianity. What are your experiences in these things? Should all Catholics be active apologists, or should I leave it to the theologians?

Also, I’m wondering if many other Catholics struggle with feelings of contempt for modern society. I find that I often become extremely angry when I think about Western culture’s abandonment of the faith that in large part made it what it is. I don’t want to harbor feelings of hate against fellow humans, even if they are atheists. I want to love them and help them move toward God in any way I can. How do you reconcile strong Catholic faith with living in a society that is often hostile toward it? I ask all of this because I’m just now at a point in my adult life (I’m 30) where I feel the need to outwardly proclaim His glory and spread the good news. I appreciate any and all advice/insights you might offer.

 

[vames]

I accept that, but I’m wondering whether it’s even worthwhile to engage in debate with atheists when they arrogantly claim the full authority of science and reason and dismiss belief in God as irrational.

Hm. Very few people are really attracted to faith only because they hear arguments from simple believers or theologians. Usually, atheists are more impressed when they can distinguish believers from non-believers by their deeds and behavior - I mean, when they are helped or treated particularly well or honest by a believer or when a believer coworker makes a difference in the workplace. As for faith itself, people “wake up” to it out of pure personal reasons and only when their mind is ready for it, not when other people try to convince them.

As for Western culture’s abandonment of the faith, I don’t have any reason to feel contempt. First, I am not above others just because I have more faith than others. And I understand why others have abandoned faith, so how could I despise and judge them?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Hi folks,

I’m still new to the site and I’m really liking it so far. I’m seeking a little advice in the following matters:

I’ve recently engaged in a heavy debate with an atheist friend. He’s a good guy, but completely dismisses any possibility of His existence. I knew throughout the whole debate that I wasn’t going to convince him and he wasn’t going to sway me. Also, I know the purpose of evangelization isn’t to win arguments; it’s simply to plant the seed and let the Holy Spirit do the real work. I accept that, but I’m wondering whether it’s even worthwhile to engage in debate with atheists when they arrogantly claim the full authority of science and reason and dismiss belief in God as irrational. I left the conversation feeling as if I had done something wrong, like Catholic apologetics is futile in such a morally relativistic society. I suppose my real dilemma is that it really hit me how taxing it can be to defend your faith against people who know so little about Christianity. What are your experiences in these things? Should all Catholics be active apologists, or should I leave it to the theologians?

I think it’s best to live your life by letting Christ shine through. If for you that means engaging in conversation with unbelievers, do that. If it means carrying on with whatever life you have and trying to show Christ through your everyday actions, do that. Whatever works for you.

The bold I just don’t understand. Science is the observation of the physical world. Because God isn’t physical, how can you disprove God using the physical? You can’t.

Also, I’m wondering if many other Catholics struggle with feelings of contempt for modern society. I find that I often become extremely angry when I think about Western culture’s abandonment of the faith that in large part made it what it is. I don’t want to harbor feelings of hate against fellow humans, even if they are atheists. I want to love them and help them move toward God in any way I can. How do you reconcile strong Catholic faith with living in a society that is often hostile toward it? I ask all of this because I’m just now at a point in my adult life (I’m 30) where I feel the need to outwardly proclaim His glory and spread the good news. I appreciate any and all advice/insights you might offer.

I just try to live my life uniting it to Christ’s Cross. One day at a time.

 

[Schatzl]

I don’t dislike society if that’s where you’re going, but I certainly don’t like its opinion on religion. where it seems that Christianity or, more specifically, Catholicism is considered to be “out dated” or even “stupid”. It scares me, it really does. I have two little cousins, they are both very shy and quiet, even around me (and I’m small for my age) I worry about where religion will stand when us kids are all adults and if the Church will still be the subject of ridicule. People also say that the Church is “stuck in the Middle Ages” in my family, we believe that that’s one of the many things that makes us special!. sorry for venting. But I do agree, we need to find a way to defend and stand up for what we believe in. :knight1:

• but not violently* :stretcher:

Schatzl

 

[Linusthe2nd]

You have explained yourself, let it go at that. It is generally a waste of time and energy to engage with atheists. All you are required to do is to give your reasons for believing the way you do, you are not required to convince. Evangelization is mostly by example. Few are called to " stand in the public square " and proclaim the Gospel.

And yes our society is very imperfect, the result of sin. Prayer, fasting, almsgiving, good works, and the sacraments. These are the remedies. If you are doing that, God will do the rest.

 

[PJM]

=o_senhor_falado;10144629]Hi folks,

I’m still new to the site and I’m really liking it so far. I’m seeking a little advice in the following matters:

I’ve recently engaged in a heavy debate with an atheist friend. He’s a good guy, but completely dismisses any possibility of His existence. I knew throughout the whole debate that I wasn’t going to convince him and he wasn’t going to sway me. Also, I know the purpose of evangelization isn’t to win arguments; it’s simply to plant the seed and let the Holy Spirit do the real work. I accept that, but I’m wondering whether it’s even worthwhile to engage in debate with atheists when they arrogantly claim the full authority of science and reason and dismiss belief in God as irrational. I left the conversation feeling as if I had done something wrong, like Catholic apologetics is futile in such a morally relativistic society. I suppose my real dilemma is that it really hit me how taxing it can be to defend your faith against people who know so little about Christianity. What are your experiences in these things? Should all Catholics be active apologists, or should I leave it to the theologians?

Also, I’m wondering if many other Catholics struggle with feelings of contempt for modern society. I find that I often become extremely angry when I think about Western culture’s abandonment of the faith that in large part made it what it is. I don’t want to harbor feelings of hate against fellow humans, even if they are atheists. I want to love them and help them move toward God in any way I can. How do you reconcile strong Catholic faith with living in a society that is often hostile toward it? I ask all of this because I’m just now at a point in my adult life (I’m 30) where I feel the need to outwardly proclaim His glory and spread the good news. I appreciate any and all advice/insights you might offer.

If as I understand your questions point; your friend does not accept his existence; you might share this brief disucssion with them:

The Universe consist [scientifically provable]; BILLIONS of things. Yet only One; Only Humanity can create; rationalize, love and or hate. NOuthing else can be proven to do this except for humanity.

In order to do these things requires absolutely:
a mind
Intellect
Freewill
and a Soul [for this limited iscussion] that which annimates all life forms.

In man; this is a unseperatable package of gifts. Gifts which as I will den=monistrate are “all spiritual things.”

Try for example to describle your freewill. What is its size, shape, color and weight? Can’t be done because its a spiritual reality Yet every human person has these gifts!

So how did we get them? Science postulates that “like must originate from LIKE.”

While we inherit our bodies from our biological parents; but they can’t share what they themselves don’t “own.” They can’t pass along "spiritual things: Because THEY ARE “spiritual things.”

So what’s the source of thtis package of spiritual things that make man alone so special and unique.

That “Source” is the 'First Cause of everything" and we choose to call it “our God.” Who too is a Spiritual Thing.

John 4:23-24 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.”

Then we can go on from there.

What I do is ask the person to look in a mirror and then tell me what they see?

In doing so they have just verified that that too have a mind, intellect and frewwill and soul"

But even with my extensive experience I try to avoid athesist who very often DO HAVE there own religion of “chosen None belief.”

 

[Delaine75]

I read all the time about Catholics having debates with atheists. I used to do that myself, and I’ll tell you what I’ve told everyone else – don’t waste your breath. It isn’t worth it. Believe me, I know all about wanting to expose them to the awesomeness of our Lord, but when someone has a closed mind, it is likely to remain closed. Pray for them instead. Let the Lord work on them.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Debating religion, especially Catholicism, with an atheist or agnostic is as futile an exercise as trying to empty the ocean with a beach pail.
Like other correspondants to this thread have stated, the only thing you can do is let the person know what you believe in and then display a good example by your personal behavior.
In other words, like they say in the street: Be a stand-up guy and display absolutely impeccable integrity in your daily life. This, and this alone will impress them.

 

[HansTrappist]

Hi folks,

I’m still new to the site and I’m really liking it so far. I’m seeking a little advice in the following matters:

I’ve recently engaged in a heavy debate with an atheist friend. He’s a good guy, but completely dismisses any possibility of His existence. I knew throughout the whole debate that I wasn’t going to convince him and he wasn’t going to sway me. Also, I know the purpose of evangelization isn’t to win arguments; it’s simply to plant the seed and let the Holy Spirit do the real work. I accept that, but I’m wondering whether it’s even worthwhile to engage in debate with atheists when they arrogantly claim the full authority of science and reason and dismiss belief in God as irrational. I left the conversation feeling as if I had done something wrong, like Catholic apologetics is futile in such a morally relativistic society. I suppose my real dilemma is that it really hit me how taxing it can be to defend your faith against people who know so little about Christianity. What are your experiences in these things? Should all Catholics be active apologists, or should I leave it to the theologians?

Also, I’m wondering if many other Catholics struggle with feelings of contempt for modern society. I find that I often become extremely angry when I think about Western culture’s abandonment of the faith that in large part made it what it is. I don’t want to harbor feelings of hate against fellow humans, even if they are atheists. I want to love them and help them move toward God in any way I can. How do you reconcile strong Catholic faith with living in a society that is often hostile toward it? I ask all of this because I’m just now at a point in my adult life (I’m 30) where I feel the need to outwardly proclaim His glory and spread the good news. I appreciate any and all advice/insights you might offer.

Here is my two cents worth:

God’s existence is not a matter of probability. Either He does exist or He does not exist.

There is very good scientific evidence that the Cosmos was designed. There is no evidence that the Cosmos arose by Blind Chance. If the Universe existed forever time is not a problem. But the Universe had a definite beginning. The Universe is not eternal as Epicurus (and his modern day incarnations like Richard Dawkins) assert. There is not an infinite amount of time for intelligent life to emerge. There is only 13.5 billion years. As it turns out, since the focus in on the possibility of random chemical combinations on planet Earth, there is only 4.5 billion years. Even worse, since the Earth wasn’t cool enough for living things until 3.8 billion years, there is even less time for the Chance emergence of intelligent life. So, what happened? Against all mathematical odds, the simplest cell formed on our planet almost immediately upon our planet being cool enough to allow for the simplest biological life. But even this “simple” cell is not so simple. A cell is actually a piece of machinery, nanotechnology really. The emergence of this irreducibly complex molecular machinery by Blind Chance is a mathematical impossibility. A cell also needs both protein and DNA to function; getting them both by Blind Chance and getting them both integrated by Blind Chance stretches the bounds of probability to the breaking point. The Cell was most definitely designed.

So, there is very good scientific evidence pointing to a Designer.

There is also very good historical evidence that Jesus Christ was exactly Who He claimed to be: God Incarnate.

But Reason can only take us so far.

Faith is a gift. This gift of Faith is given freely in the Sacrament of Baptism.

So, your atheist friend should begin with Reason. The problem is that many atheists are unwilling to follow the scientific evidence where it leads. The have an a priori bias towards Materialism.

But, should your atheist friend follow the scientific evidence towards the obvious conclusion (Design), then the next step would be to seek out the identity of the Designer. I would tell your atheist friend to start spending time in the Eucharistic presence of this Designer. Tell him to think of it as an “experiment”.

And of course, the final step is to receive the freely given gift of Faith in the Sacrament of Baptism.

 

[zro_x]

Hm. Very few people are really attracted to faith only because they hear arguments from simple believers or theologians. Usually, atheists are more impressed when they can distinguish believers from non-believers by their deeds and behavior - I mean, when they are helped or treated particularly well or honest by a believer or when a believer coworker makes a difference in the workplace. As for faith itself, people “wake up” to it out of pure personal reasons and only when their mind is ready for it, not when other people try to convince them.

I read all the time about Catholics having debates with atheists. I used to do that myself, and I’ll tell you what I’ve told everyone else – don’t waste your breath. It isn’t worth it. Believe me, I know all about wanting to expose them to the awesomeness of our Lord, but when someone has a closed mind, it is likely to remain closed. Pray for them instead. Let the Lord work on them.

Debating religion, especially Catholicism, with an atheist or agnostic is as futile an exercise as trying to empty the ocean with a beach pail.
Like other correspondants to this thread have stated, the only thing you can do is let the person know what you believe in and then display a good example by your personal behavior.
In other words, like they say in the street: Be a stand-up guy and display absolutely impeccable integrity in your daily life. This, and this alone will impress them.

Have any of you been an atheist or close to atheism? believe it or not, there are some atheists out there that are legitimately trying to seek the truth. For a while, I was an agnostic who was beginning to lean intellectually toward atheism. It was the intellectual writings of C.S. Lewis that were a big reason why I started to lean the other direction, not the good works of any particular christian. Perhaps most atheists are swayed by that, but the ones who are here on CAF are here because they either want to stir the pot or are really looking for intellectual answers–sometimes both. And if there is a possibility that we can save even one one soul through intellectual arguments, how could it be a waste of time? Granted, I’m new here and haven’t engaged in too many debates with atheists, so I havn’t really had time to get “worn out” yet. But I think that the ones I’ve had have been somewhat fruitful and enlightening, at least for me, if nothing else. and granted, intellectual argumentation isn’t for everyone. Everyone should try to obtain at least as much information about the catholic faith as is necessary to defend the faith, but if philosophical proofs aren’t your thing, by all means, profess the gospel through your deeds.

Just because doing good works is a great way to evangelise does not mean that it is the only way to evangelize.

 

[odile53]

I have a few friends who identify variously as “secular humanists,” “pagans,” “Wiccans,” and “agnostics.” Their actual history is that they were baptized Catholic, all of them as infants, and had varying degrees of catechesis before they decided to exit the Church.

One of the “pagans” is pretty virulently anti-Catholic, but I’ve met equally virulently anti-Catholic Protestants of various stripes. I pretty much leave these people alone on any sort of theologic discussion, and change the subject if they try to bring it up, since I’ve learned through experience that all they really want to do is get into an argument. Any argument will do. Personally, I have better things to do at work, like do my job!

The “secular humanist” is a different story, he has quite a bit of catechesis and usually is willing to enter into a give-and-take exchange. I’ve chatted with him many times, and usually invite him to keep an open mind about matters of faith.

The “Wiccans” want to talk about all sorts of fabled characters whom they identify as gods and goddesses. Again, I’m there to work, so I try to redirect things to getting back to work. I was in a position where a Wiccan nurse wanted to do some incantations over a critically ill ICU patient, and surreptitiously reported her to the nursing supervisor.

The “agnostics” mind their own business for the most part, and I prefer their presence in some cases to some “evangelicals,” most of whom at my worksite are also fallen-away Catholics. One of these “evangelicals” kept getting in my face and asking me if I had accepted Jesus as my personal savior so often that I ended up reporting him to human resources.

Because of the number of people in all of these groups who were at least baptized Catholic, it seems to me that the Church needs to do more in outreach and in cleaning up our image in this world, and at least explain its teachings in more readily understandable terms, understandable for plain old Joe and Jane Catholic who are getting frustrated and becoming tempted to mumble incantations or whatever in place of the Eucharist. And by the way, of all the people I’ve seen return to the Church, the central theme is ALWAYS the Eucharist!

My own personal attitude towards evangelization in this year of faith is this: I make no secret of being Roman Catholic, have pleasantly referred people to such sources as the Catechism and particularly knowledgeable parish priests, and will talk about my faith during a break. However, I figure that since the Catholic Church has been around for 21 centuries, my audience has probably at least heard of it. What annoys me most about “the world,” is this: It seems as if the Catholic Church is the last socially acceptable target for bashing. I trouble no man about his religion, but I do insist my views be similarly respected.

And yes, if you are reasonable, polite, and sincerely questioning, feel free to ask me about Catholicism. Otherwise—get back to work!

 

[fred_conty]

Hi folks,

I’m still new to the site and I’m really liking it so far. I’m seeking a little advice in the following matters:

I’ve recently engaged in a heavy debate with an atheist friend. He’s a good guy, but completely dismisses any possibility of His existence. I knew throughout the whole debate that I wasn’t going to convince him and he wasn’t going to sway me. Also, I know the purpose of evangelization isn’t to win arguments; it’s simply to plant the seed and let the Holy Spirit do the real work. I accept that, but I’m wondering whether it’s even worthwhile to engage in debate with atheists when they arrogantly claim the full authority of science and reason and dismiss belief in God as irrational. I left the conversation feeling as if I had done something wrong, like Catholic apologetics is futile in such a morally relativistic society. I suppose my real dilemma is that it really hit me how taxing it can be to defend your faith against people who know so little about Christianity. What are your experiences in these things? Should all Catholics be active apologists, or should I leave it to the theologians?

Also, I’m wondering if many other Catholics struggle with feelings of contempt for modern society. I find that I often become extremely angry when I think about Western culture’s abandonment of the faith that in large part made it what it is. I don’t want to harbor feelings of hate against fellow humans, even if they are atheists. I want to love them and help them move toward God in any way I can. How do you reconcile strong Catholic faith with living in a society that is often hostile toward it? I ask all of this because I’m just now at a point in my adult life (I’m 30) where I feel the need to outwardly proclaim His glory and spread the good news. I appreciate any and all advice/insights you might offer.

I don’t believe it is so much our explainations that win over people in this category, as when we give out information, or ask the right questions, that it puts a question mark in their minds. Over time it may be the thought seed that breaks a hole thru their mind dam.

People come to religion because they found holes in their belief system and became discontented. It isn’t about the truth in our system as the untruth in theirs. So don’t give up trying to give and take for it is like a snowball going down a hillside. It dosen’t have to work immediately, but long term. You never know, and that’s the price you pay.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Did Christ argue from philosophy? How did St. Paul evangelize? Christ revealed God’s Plan for Salvation. Paul taught Christ and him Crucified.

I have seen no signs in these forums that any atheist/agnostic was willing to acknowledge the Truths of Faith or the Truths of Philosophy. Always they fall back on the irrationality of a self caused, self sustained, self directed universe.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Did Christ argue from philosophy? How did St. Paul evangelize? Christ revealed God’s Plan for Salvation. Paul taught Christ and him Crucified.

I have seen no signs in these forums that any atheist/agnostic was willing to acknowledge the Truths of Faith or the Truths of Philosophy. Always they fall back on the irrationality of a self caused, self sustained, self directed universe.

Heck, I have barely seen Catholics on this site willing to concede a point. Usually these are the ones who place a high value on intellectual argumentation–and then treat their debates as life-or-death struggles. Instead I have seen hostility and straw men when people disagree here. The more forceful and insulting you can be, the greater the chance you “win”.

If we cannot get our act together how can we expect atheists to get their act together?

 

[Bigman]

You will find that most atheists are not close minded…
Your friend probably thinks that your belief in god is irrational because you haven’t provided a rational explanation.
I would suggest discussing a deistic god before even considering bringing up scripture.
I would suggest not talking about souls, an intangible construct with no evidence will not go far.

 

[PJM]

=InJesusItrust;10161135]Heck, I have barely seen Catholics on this site willing to concede a point. Usually these are the ones who place a high value on intellectual argumentation–and then treat their debates as life-or-death struggles. Instead I have seen hostility and straw men when people disagree here. The more forceful and insulting you can be, the greater the chance you “win”.

If we cannot get our act together how can we expect atheists to get their act together?

Sorry, but that has not been my experience.

As a Catholic, our "comprise options are extremely limted, simply because the CC does hold the key’s to ones salvation because that was and continues o be God’s Will. Truth can’t be comprimised.

It’s not most often opinion; but truthful teachings that make us seem so rigid.

I’ve been correcteda few times and have conceded the point and thanked to one who gave the correction.

God Bless,

pat/PJM

 

[InJesusItrust]

I’m not talking about saying that teachings are wrong; I am talking about admitting you are wrong like when you speak of things you do not understand or have a certain opinion about non-theological disputes.

 

[PJM]

=InJesusItrust;10164529]I’m not talking about saying that teachings are wrong; I am talking about admitting you are wrong like when you speak of things you do not understand or have a certain opinion about non-theological disputes.

Thank God *, I have not been wrong often. BUT when I have been; I have “fessed up”; apologized and thanked the person, sincerly for correcting me.

I’ m only responsible for me; but have seen others take similar actions.

Continued blessings,

pat/PJM*