Eschatological confusion

[apfal]

Something that has bugged me for a while (and the answer may well be “we can’t know yet, prophecy is tricky till it’s fulfilled”):

Jesus says, several times, that the Second Coming could be at any moment (or at least that’s what it seems to mean). But there is also prophecy about a mass conversion of Israel after “the times of the Gentiles” – “all Israel shall be saved”. So how come we can’t know, since that clearly has not yet happened, that the Second Coming is not that imminent? (Same goes for the Antichrist, I guess… but is it quite so clear that the Antichrist will be obviously the Antichrist? While a mass conversion of Israel/Judaism to the Church could hardly be missed.)

 

[Evan]

I know every year, I hope it will happen before the next feast of Christ the King. Maybe this year.

Next year in the new Jerusalem!!!

 

[onenow1]

Something that has bugged me for a while (and the answer may well be “we can’t know yet, prophecy is tricky till it’s fulfilled”):

Jesus says, several times, that the Second Coming could be at any moment (or at least that’s what it seems to mean). But there is also prophecy about a mass conversion of Israel after “the times of the Gentiles” – “all Israel shall be saved”. So how come we can’t know, since that clearly has not yet happened, that the Second Coming is not that imminent? (Same goes for the Antichrist, I guess… but is it quite so clear that the Antichrist will be obviously the Antichrist? While a mass conversion of Israel/Judaism to the Church could hardly be missed.)

Welcome, Apfal.
The end of life in this world has come for many, many billions, and so to it will come for us,at our end of life. When Jesus comes is a matter, left to God ! and Jesus tells us in Luke 12, in the parable of being ready for the master ! Be Ready ! Or more to the point I think Be Holy !

Jesus prayer was for us to all be of one mind !

God Bless

 

[Barbkw]

But there is also prophecy about a mass conversion of Israel after “the times of the Gentiles” – “all Israel shall be saved”.

Do you mean the 144,000 from the 12 Tribes of Israel?

Footnotes from the USCCB NAB:

[4-9] One hundred and forty-four thousand: the square of twelve (the number of Israel’s tribes) multiplied by a thousand, symbolic of the new Israel (cf Rev 14:1-5; Gal 6:16; James 1:1) that embraces people from every nation, race, people, and tongue (Rev 7:9).

As written above, prepare yourself now in holiness and leave the rest to God.

I listen to quite a bit of Bott Radio with the “Bible Answer Man” - he’s a sort of radio Pope.

Different people from various protestant demoninations will call in arguing over pre trib and post trib, etc.

Yesterday, I only caught half of the repeat explanation of the Whore of Babylon and 666.

 

[maryj]

youtube.com/watch?v=uc-U2SHkuOk

This is a link to last mondays journey home on EWTN, a jewish convert tells his story of conversion. You should go to the 35 minute mark and listen to what he has to say about just this question, which comes at about the 40:38 minute mark. I suggest listening to his whole story, it really is interesting. God bless.

 

[Barbkw]

youtube.com/watch?v=uc-U2SHkuOk

That’s absolutely beautiful to my ears!

 

[onenow1]

Do you mean the 144,000 from the 12 Tribes of Israel?

Footnotes from the USCCB NAB:

[4-9] One hundred and forty-four thousand: the square of twelve (the number of Israel’s tribes) multiplied by a thousand, symbolic of the new Israel (cf Rev 14:1-5; Gal 6:16; James 1:1) that embraces people from every nation, race, people, and tongue (Rev 7:9).

.

Hi, Barb,
Ties in perfectly with Pentecost, they call us Christians now and no doubt more to come!
Peace

 

[ryanoneil]

Something that has bugged me for a while (and the answer may well be “we can’t know yet, prophecy is tricky till it’s fulfilled”):

Jesus says, several times, that the Second Coming could be at any moment (or at least that’s what it seems to mean). But there is also prophecy about a mass conversion of Israel after “the times of the Gentiles” – “all Israel shall be saved”. So how come we can’t know, since that clearly has not yet happened, that the Second Coming is not that imminent? (Same goes for the Antichrist, I guess… but is it quite so clear that the Antichrist will be obviously the Antichrist? While a mass conversion of Israel/Judaism to the Church could hardly be missed.)

Have you considered the possibility that Rom 11 isn’t saying anything about a mass conversion of Israel?

“I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins” (Rom. 11:25-27).

What if the last Gentile comes in at the very last moment on the very last day of time itself? That would mean that Jews would be hardened until the very end of time.

But, I think Paul is actually talking about the manner of salvation for the Jews and not numbers or timing. A remnant of Israel will be saved by grace just like the gentile. If they do not persist in their unbelief they will be grafted in. Meaning, “all Israel” would be the cumulative total of Jews saved by grace until the very last day. Could there be a mass converstion? Sure! But I don’t think that Rom 11 can be used to argue the point that it must happen. It’s about the manner of salvation (grace), rather than the number or timing.

**And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved; for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth.” (Rom 9:27-28)

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (Rom 11:13-15)

Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy. For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:30-32)**

Does that make sense?

Alternatively, “all Israel” could also be viewed as the sum total of both Jews and Gentiles who will be saved.

 

[Lev23]

Something that has bugged me for a while (and the answer may well be “we can’t know yet, prophecy is tricky till it’s fulfilled”):

Jesus says, several times, that the Second Coming could be at any moment (or at least that’s what it seems to mean). But there is also prophecy about a mass conversion of Israel after “the times of the Gentiles” – “all Israel shall be saved”. So how come we can’t know, since that clearly has not yet happened, that the Second Coming is not that imminent? (Same goes for the Antichrist, I guess… but is it quite so clear that the Antichrist will be obviously the Antichrist? While a mass conversion of Israel/Judaism to the Church could hardly be missed.)

Good question. Since the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth(1Tim3:15)”, that knows there will be a second coming of Christ to Israel, as well as being aware of the prophecies concerning the last days, how can they not know the time if they see the obvious anti-Christ among them?

I believe there is a imminent, future event of Christ catching up His Church before the appointed remaining last seven years Israel has allotted for her to fulfill(Dan 9). During the seven years, Israel will consist of Christ’s 144,000 “servants of God” from the 12 tribes of Israel and of course, hardened Israel. But peoples from all over the earth will come to salvation during that time, which is consistent with both Jew and Gentile coming to Christ now.(Rev 7)

Right before the second coming of Christ to Israel, hardened Israel will turn back to God the way God wants them to turn to Him, by His one and only Son Jesus. It will be like what happened in Egypt, when Joseph revealed who he really was to His brothers. Jesus Christ did say-“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”(Matt23:39) Catholics will say this verse is said during the liturgy of the Mass. Very well. But hardened Israel will also say this at the second coming of Jesus Christ to Israel.