Eternal Existence violates the freedom of the will?

[Luke_K]

We have the possibility to be more joyful because evil exists than if it did not exist.

The possiblity of heroism, for example, can only come about because there is an evil to overcome.

The possiblity of sacrifice can only happen if there is suffering to endure.

There is the possibility of greater love because there is the chance to offer sacrifice. Those who freely choose to love God, in the face of pain and sacrifice, offer a higher degree of love than would be possible if there was no evil.

A simplistic analogy:

A student who is given all the answers of the test while taking it, can achieve a 100% score.

But only when the risk of failure (and the pain and suffering that can cause) can the test show a much higher achievement of getting all the right answers without them being given.

So, the risk of evil provides a greater good.

God could have forced all creatures to do whatever He wanted. But there would be less interest for Him to create a world like that, rather than where creatures could freely choose for or against Him, and thus truly have merit for their actions.

First of all, pain and suffering are not the same as evil.

Second, if your argument is correct, then that means God is dependent on evil to bring about the best good possible. Therefore God would not be all-powerful. It would mean he needs evil, which is a horrifying prospect.

 

[reggieM]

Second, if your argument is correct, then that means God is dependent on evil to bring about the best good possible. Therefore God would not be all-powerful. It would mean he needs evil, which is a horrifying prospect.

No, it doesn’t say “the best good possible” since God, by definition, is the best good possible.

If the question is, “how could God create anything without diminishing His own goodness?”, then this cannot be answered on the natural level (since we’re talking about the “quantity” of a supernatural being which cannot be measured naturally – it is not a feature of nature).

To say that God “loves” or “needs” anything would be just as “horrifying” as anything you’ve presented here.

We understand the terms “loves” and “needs” from a natural perspective. By definition, God cannot give anything that would mean a diminishment of Him or His powers. He cannot need anything that would mean He is lacking.

These are paradoxes which are not unknown to nature (but are different from the same).

To expect human life itself to be understood without paradox would be a major problem in itself.

He who loves his life in this world will lose it.
In giving, you receive.

Those are a couple of the paradoxes that Christ taught us – and like true paradoxes, they conform to reason and truth while appearing to defy logic.

 

[catharina]

That is the purpose of our existence, not the reason God created versus not creating.

Suit yourself -
yet I believe God created us for His delight as Creator.

Our purpose is to serve Hin so that He may delight with us eternally.

“God made us to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this world
(our purpose)
and to be happy with Him in heaven.”
(His creative and eternal delight)

 

[reggieM]

Second, if your argument is correct, then that means God is dependent on evil to bring about the best good possible. Therefore God would not be all-powerful. It would mean he needs evil, which is a horrifying prospect.

I forgot an extremely important point that goes along with my previous reply.

First, God created freely and not under an obligation. God was not dependent on creating beings that possess free-will in order to create the best good possible.

As I said, God already is the best good possible. Nothing more of good could be added to God, and nothing can be taken away from God.

God is all-powerful and is complete fullness of being.

So on the question of how God could create mankind, but not be diminished – this is similar to your question on “would it have been better if God didn’t create at all”?

If God didn’t create man, with the freedoms we have, there would be less opportunity for creatures to give glory to Him.

How can God give something and not be diminished?
How can He love and not lose what He gives to man?
How can He create beings and remain immutable?
Does God need evil in order to create something good?

On the last question, God didn’t create evil, but the possibility of evil. That possibility offered a challenge to mankind and a chance for mankind to rise above the challenge through sacrifice. Evil is the result of sin – and no human being is required to commit actual sins.

On the prior questions, God is not dimnished by what He created. He does not lose power. He is not dependent on anything that He created. His creatures are dependent on Him, but He does not lose or gain in his fullness.

The answer for this is due to the fact that God is an actual infinite in being.

Therefore, God can give His love to the universe and always have an infinite amount left. He cannot suffer a diminishment.

That’s the paradox of an actual infinite.

Infinity minus any number remains an infinite number. It cannot be a smaller number or larger and yet numbers can be taken away.

So God can give His love for an infinite amount of time without diminishing any of his being. He can receive love from His creatures without adding any goodness (since he possesses infinite goodness).

An infinity of fullness remains the same fullness of goodness after giving goodness to creatures – because an infinity plus any number remains an infinity.

 

[Eklecktika]

However, that’s all really a moot point, since [/Catholic doctrine is wrong and Hell is not eternal. The only reason people think Hell is eternal is because of bad translating** and it’s easier to control the masses with the threat of eternal damnation. I personally hold to either annihilation of the damned or universal restoration (the former of which is easiest to support Biblically, the latter less so, but neither are nonsensical like eternal punishment, which contradicts so many scriptures it’s not even funny, along with any sense of Justice). Hell is bad enough without dreaming up neverending punishments that have no support in the Scriptures.

Bad translations…throughout all of scripture, eh?

Sources and background material, please.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I understand this point, and I mentioned in my post above that this is meaningless to me. who cares if existence is better than non-existence if I’m suffering in hell??

Good, is not dependent on your opinion if we are to think of it as objective. A person may like raping women, and say who cares if Gods nature says something different. Hell is a place of suffering, however, our not wanting to suffer is not the same as not wanting hell. Those people in hell want to be in hell in so far as they do not want nor love God. But by rejecting God, they reject the root of all true happiness and fulfillment. They reject the very root of all that is good and pleasurable. Thus they end up in a state that is opposed to good; which is hell. But by being in opposition to goodness this in no way frees them from the moral good of being or their responsibility as free agents.

Furthermore, if “anniliation would contradict God’s existence” does this mean that God’s goodness somehow depends on my existence?? Was my creation neccessary in God’s plan?

In the sense that God had no choice but to create, No. But perhaps you exist necessarily in so far as God eternally wills your existence. You were created in goodness. Goodness is an eternal expression of moral being. Any personal being that is born in to such a reality is made only to experience the eternity of moral goodness given that there is no other reason to exist other than for the moral good which is eternal. Thus to be a person in Gods existence is necessarily to be immortal in so far as we exist for moral goodness. It is a mistake to think that we become immortal only after we die. Immortality is not conditional, but rather, it is an expression of morality. We are necessarily immortal insofar as we exist in Gods moral and eternal act which is existence itself. Given that we ought to choose goodness, God is therefore justified in creating immortal beings that can choose against the greater good.

Thus it would be contradictory to Gods nature to then say that because somebody will choose against me that therefore the moral good of existence is conditional on how people “feel” about me. Existence is either moral goodness or it isn’t. Its quite simply a fallacy to think that the “moral good” is determined merely by how “pleasurable” something is, since if that were true, then a person who finds raping children pleasurable would be justified in his or her act. But pleasure is not and never has been a true definition of moral goodness.

A persons choice to reject good will land a person in a spiritual state where that person ought not to be, but that in no way contradicts the moral good, given that love is to be freely chosen in respect of created persons, and mans ability to exist in hell both fulfills the moral good of existence and the moral responsibility of the created person. Hell does not give man pleasure, but it fulfills the moral dignity of an eternal being with freewill. The fulfillment of moral goodness does not require that we all go to heaven. Thus the existence of hell is good in so far as it respects the nature of true love, which is to give immortal-people the freedom of choice.

Thus i conclude that the responsibility of God is not to give pleasure, but rather God creates us only for the end of that which is “moral goodness”, which is himself. In order for heaven to be heaven, it first has to be “moral goodness” since that is the true root of eternal happiness. This also makes a lot of sense if we consider the problem pain. If pain is necessary for the fulfillment of the moral good (in the context of created people), then pain will exist, and in virtue of that necessity, pain is transformed into something that is good in respect of its relationship to a greater good.

The context of suffering is very important, when debating the problem of evil or hell.

 

[slywakka250]

I guess I can try to argue against hell and God all I want, but when it comes down to it, if the Catholic Church is true, and this God exists, then God will do what he will, and I will get what I deserve.

from where I’m at, I really don’t like my existence, and wish I could have avoided it, but alas, I will have to accept what God has done to me, even if that means hell.

I seem resigned to hell because right now I can find no desire in my heart to be saved. I feel no attraction to goodness, in fact the mention of good things or God gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. I guess for the moment I’m pretty darn evil, and am just stuck with a hard heart for the moment.

I can’t stand it how so many prayers in Church are prayers for our “salvation,” how every Mass the priest says, “save us from final damnation.” all the focus on sin just turns me off to the faith. So when I go to pray, I’m just like, “God, why did you do this to me? Why did you create me and now my heart is turned away from you, and I don’t want you, why did you do this??” and I’m all the more angry at God for taking this gamble on my life, and so far my hand isn’t so hot because though I may try, I can’t find a reason to love this God or listen to him, and time is running out.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I guess I can try to argue against hell and God all I want, but when it comes down to it, if the Catholic Church is true, and this God exists, then God will do what he will, and I will get what I deserve.

from where I’m at, I really don’t like my existence, and wish I could have avoided it, but alas, I will have to accept what God has done to me, even if that means hell.

I seem resigned to hell because right now I can find no desire in my heart to be saved. I feel no attraction to goodness, in fact the mention of good things or God gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. I guess for the moment I’m pretty darn evil, and am just stuck with a hard heart for the moment.

I can’t stand it how so many prayers in Church are prayers for our “salvation,” how every Mass the priest says, “save us from final damnation.” all the focus on sin just turns me off to the faith. So when I go to pray, I’m just like, “God, why did you do this to me? Why did you create me and now my heart is turned away from you, and I don’t want you, why did you do this??” and I’m all the more angry at God for taking this gamble on my life, and so far my hand isn’t so hot because though I may try, I can’t find a reason to love this God or listen to him, and time is running out.

. Nobody really wants to do Gods will silly. God likes people who are honest with themselves more than the hypocrites who pretend to be good, and that puts you in his good books. I am probably as evil you are; or perhaps even worse. For instance, if it was up to me, i would want to have sex with all the beautiful women in the world. And i don’t like going to Church either; i would rather stay at home and masturbate to sexy women. But i will not because it does not truly fulfill my nature, and i want to fulfill my nature, more than i want sin; because i care about what is going to happen to me. Nobody is good except God. We are suppose to do good because we “know” its good; not because we love it in an “emotional sense”. To love is not necessarily to have an emotional connection to someone. To love is to act for somebodies greatest good. God said if you love me you will keep my commandments. I wouldn’t trust somebody who thought they were good. The best people are often unconscious of how good they are or why they are good. Love grows the more we do Good. The more we engage with God the more grace God gives us. By ourselves we cannot do good to the degree that God wants of us because God is the source of all perfectly good acts; but we can “will” the good, by making a conscious attempt to act against selfishness. That much power we do have; and this is our responsibility. We are supposed to be moral creatures at heart. God will help us do the rest. But life is an ongoing war, and change will not happen straight away; especially if you have addictions.

People go to heaven not because they are good, but because God is offering them a good nature and the person is freely responding by accepting that nature. Obviously, nobody would see the point of good if God didn’t reveal to us that it would fulfill our being, and so God reveals the existence of heaven in scripture. To be good is to be true to ones true nature. And to be true to ones nature is to act for the end for which you were created; the purpose of which is moral goodness. You might not see why you will like good now; but in Heaven it will be impossible for you to dislike heaven, because God will fulfill you, and you we see it for what it truly is.

At the moment we are sinful. Therefore we are confused about what is good for us. Thus some of us can’t see it, and in some extremely rare cases some of us will be so invincibly ignorant, and honestly so, that they will not be judged by God. A good life is a struggle and a war. But if you love yourself, (which to some degree you naturally do, otherwise you wouldn’t be complaining), you will act for the moral good because you know that it is good; not because it will give you pleasure in this life. Even people who commit suicide are acting for the good of their being, but their act doesn’t fulfill their being. They are not fulfilling the perfect love that they ought to have for themselves.

Your concern should not be, “is this pleasurable”. Your concern should be, “am i living according to what i am suppose to be, am i living according to my true nature”. God shows us what our true nature is, and that is eternal happiness in the moral good of God.

God-bless and good luck. I hope i see you on the otherside.