Eternal Sonhip / Dutch language "problem"

[pilgrim_NL]

Hello all,

I was hoping to start some dialogue concerning the Eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus. I am reading through the Gospel of John, after finishing James White’s book “The Forgotten Trinity”. I don’t know if anyone has read it, I thought it was a nice book for a laymen to better understand the Trinity. I have always believed in the Trinity, but became more and more convinced of the clear biblical testimony. So that was kinda cool.

There is a seeming “problem” with the creeds and wording of certain terms in the Bible, in the Dutch language (I am from Holland).

For instance, the term “begotten” is translated in the Dutch version of the creeds, and in the Bible (John 1:14, John 1:18, and several places) as “Eniggeboren”. That is the Dutch word. A literal translation to English would be “Only born”. Perhaps at this point you people can allready see the struggle. I think in Dutch it is easy to get a wrong understanding of the Eternal Sonship. We don’t really have a word for “begotten”.

Now in Luke 1:35, it says “And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God”(ESV)

I have dealt with people who deny the Trinity, they point to this verse to proof that Jesus was just a man, became the Son of God at birth.

Can you people help me with a solid understanding of this verse to refute that position, because I think the understanding that those unitarians have concerning Luke 1:35 is in contradiction with especially the teaching of John’s Gospel, where Jesus points to the fact that He was with the Father before He was born etc.

Thanks.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Sorry I can’t do this in Greek!

In English so far as I have found:

I. Authorised Version:

Lk 1:35 That … which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God I.e may not be called anything before He is born - unborn babies often aren’t I believe. Shall BE CALLED Son of God at some time after birth - NOT as your friends say (if I understand you right) “shall BE the Son of God after His birth”

(I don’t know how distinct these two things would sound in Dutch though. Are your friends “fudging” the ends of their sentences?)

Jn 1:14 only begotten
Jn 1:18 only begotten Son

II. New Jerusalem:

Lk 1:35 the child … will be called Son of God I.e same comment as above

Jn 1:14 only Son
Jn 1:18 only Son

III. Apostle’s Creed:

only Son

IV. Nicene Creed:

only Son

The word “begotten” which according to Shorter Oxford is a synonym for Son * is added in the next line of this Creed.

A Greek expert might know whether the Greek original of the specific phrase “Only begotten Son” as in AV Jn 1:18 is additional evidence for what you are saying, or not.

• But it doesn’t seem to hyperfocus on birth specifically as the phrase you gave us does. “Born” as in “born days” implies in English from birth onwards. “Begotten” would possibly imply before birth as well, if one had to think about it.

Words are endlessly fascinating!

 

[JerryZ]

Hello all,

I was hoping to start some dialogue concerning the Eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus. I am reading through the Gospel of John, after finishing James White’s book “The Forgotten Trinity”. I don’t know if anyone has read it, I thought it was a nice book for a laymen to better understand the Trinity. I have always believed in the Trinity, but became more and more convinced of the clear biblical testimony. So that was kinda cool.

There is a seeming “problem” with the creeds and wording of certain terms in the Bible, in the Dutch language (I am from Holland).

For instance, the term “begotten” is translated in the Dutch version of the creeds, and in the Bible (John 1:14, John 1:18, and several places) as “Eniggeboren”. That is the Dutch word. A literal translation to English would be “Only born”. Perhaps at this point you people can allready see the struggle. I think in Dutch it is easy to get a wrong understanding of the Eternal Sonship. We don’t really have a word for “begotten”.

Now in Luke 1:35, it says “And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God”(ESV)

I have dealt with people who deny the Trinity, they point to this verse to proof that Jesus was just a man, became the Son of God at birth.

Can you people help me with a solid understanding of this verse to refute that position, because I think the understanding that those unitarians have concerning Luke 1:35 is in contradiction with especially the teaching of John’s Gospel, where Jesus points to the fact that He was with the Father before He was born etc.

Thanks.

Push them to the Gospel of John.

In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word WAS GOD.

John pretty emphatically tells us that Jesus WAS before time was. The Word took up flesh in due time and became man.

There you have it. The creeds are a direct result of John’s Gospel.

…

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

The Germans use “eingeboren” from what I would guess are the same etymological causes, but it is certainly a specialized use of the term; an online dictionary will only tell you it means something like “native” or “aboriginal,” i.e., born “in” the place in question. With the recognition that it is more of a term of art than a literal descriptor I don’t think there is too much of a problem apart from the fact that the word, when first introduced, will require an extra few seconds of explanation (by that we mean . . . ). I realize that non-believers might be thrown by the term, but I don’t think there are any German Christians cluelessly placing their faith in “the indigenous Son of God.” Divine begetting has little in common with human begetting, and I suspect that long ago when the theological vernaculars were developing a choice was made in the Germanic languages that the terms for begetting (zeugen, verwekken), while more strictly equivalent to the Greek verb, would create even more confusion through their fleshly associations than did the term for being born.