Evangelising Scandanavia : an especially difficult task

[kildare]

Since the 16th century the vast majority of Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Icelandics and Finns have remained outside the body of the church, in fact it wasnt until relatively recently (19th century) that catholicism was allowed coexist with the dominant Lutheran national churches. However recently even Lutheranism has lost its hold, and there are now studies that up to 75% of Swedes are either agnostic or atheist. Religion itself is under attack!

But this is not North Korea or the former USSR, where atheism was promoted by a corrupt regime on an impoverished and persecuted citizenry. The scandanavian countries boast some of the highest wealth per capita, the highest-rated and fairest health and education systems, the lowest crime rates and according to studies are among the “happiest” nations on earth.

Not surpirsingly, people there must wonder, why they need religion or even God!

The catholic church in particular has a big image problem. If the underlying historical “anti-popery” of lutheranism was not enough, then the so-called iliberal stances taken by the church on abortion, contraception, gay marriages means has had the effect of giving the church a disturbing, quasi-fascist image which is part of a greater conspiracy which attempts to destroy the self-made left-wing paradise with which so many Danes and Swedes are proud about.

They do not want their country to become as religion obsessed as America, with its perceived war mongering foreign policy, where crimes rates are high and where the super-rich wail at the slightest imposition of taxation to alleviate the massive amount of poverty.
They dont want to pay for education or health, as the government provides for everything and does not impose any impositions on their morality! Highly educated swedes point to the basic morality of their society without God. Abortion is legal but no more prevalent than catholic nations such as Ireland or Poland.

Now I think that the devil has played a very good trick on our nordic brethern. He has enticed them all through democratic socialism which takes care of them from the cradle to the grave without denying them any freedom, and he does not even need to enforce Godlessness as payment. They renounce God freely.

How can God find His way back in?

 

[Hiskid1973]

I think this is all part of the apostasy before the return of Christ…People are turning to Christ daily…My Church is involved in bringing the gospel to new tribes found in India/Nepal region…One day soon all that need to be reached will be accomplished. We are also having success with people turning to Christ in groups in central America who have combined Catholicism with animism…They have some pretty bizarre rituals…

 

[Call_Me_V]

Since the 16th century the vast majority of Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Icelandics and Finns have remained outside the body of the church, in fact it wasnt until relatively recently (19th century) that catholicism was allowed coexist with the dominant Lutheran national churches. However recently even Lutheranism has lost its hold, and there are now studies that up to 75% of Swedes are either agnostic or atheist. Religion itself is under attack!

Last I checked, they were free to follow any religion they want. How is religion under attack?

But this is not North Korea or the former USSR, where atheism was promoted by a corrupt regime on an impoverished and persecuted citizenry.

Darn

The scandanavian countries boast some of the highest wealth per capita, the highest-rated and fairest health and education systems, the lowest crime rates and according to studies are among the “happiest” nations on earth.

The fruits of atheism (I’m just kidding, most experts actually think that atheism is a result of a happy society, not the other way around).

Not surpirsingly, people there must wonder, why they need religion or even God!

Indeed. Studies are quite clear on that issue. In cultures where there are great societal ills, short, painful, meaningless lives, etc., religion, with its magical promises of a utopian afterlife has great power. But in cultures where people are happy and content, many can’t see the benefit in such desperate hopes. They have no use for such wishful thinking – they already have everything that they could ever wish for!

The catholic church in particular has a big image problem. If the underlying historical “anti-popery” of lutheranism was not enough, then the so-called iliberal stances taken by the church on abortion, contraception, gay marriages means has had the effect of giving the church a disturbing, quasi-fascist image which is part of a greater conspiracy which attempts to destroy the self-made left-wing paradise with which so many Danes and Swedes are proud about.

Oh no! An evil, left wing paradise that takes feeds of the poor… and educates everyone… and provides adequate health care… and… all that other evil left-wing stuff.

They dont want to pay for education or health, as the government provides for everything and does not impose any impositions on their morality!

Oh no!

Highly educated swedes point to the basic morality of their society without God. Abortion is legal but no more prevalent than catholic nations such as Ireland or Poland.

Imagine that. I get an earful every other day about how abortion is a result of evil secularism, and yet the most secular countries in the world aren’t any worse about abortion than America is. Strange.

Now I think that the devil has played a very good trick on our nordic brethern. He has enticed them all through democratic socialism which takes care of them from the cradle to the grave without denying them any freedom, and he does not even need to enforce Godlessness as payment.

The devil gave them low poverty, great healthcare, free education, and lots of freedom? Now we see the true depths of his evil!

They renounce God freely.

How can God find His way back in?

He can’t. Scandinavia is one of atheism’s greatest strongholds. Religion’s promises of a happy afterlife really only work on people who’s lives are hard, short, and brutal, they don’t have much effect on people that are actually happy.

Seriously, a part of me is reading your post and thinking that you might be really be an atheist who’s promoting Scandinavia. Or maybe it’s just so awesome nothing you say can actually make it look bad. Scandinavia was the example that finally convinced me that democratic socialism was actually feasible. Religion won’t get much of a following in Scandinavia unless some crisis occurs that ruins their lives and makes those stories of a magical happy afterlife sound appealing again.

V

 

[kildare]

Seriously, a part of me is reading your post and thinking that you might be really be an atheist who’s promoting Scandinavia.
V

From The Daily Telegraph
“in 2007 Sweden was rated best practising democracy by The Economist, least corrupt nation by Transparency International, most equal in gender relations by the World Economic Forum, and most generous donor of overseas development aid by the OECD. Even the legend that the country has an unusually high suicide rate isn’t true. Coming about 35th in the world, Sweden comes in lower than France, Germany, Australia and New Zealand.”

However before you take a bow V, consider first that its not all so clear cut.
We cant really assume that the social paradise that is Sweden of the 21st century is a result of its non-belief. Indeed the foundations of modern Sweden Society were decidedly Christain, albeit mixed with an increasing amount of social democracy as the years pass by. That the founders own non-believing decendents have not brought their country into the chaos many of us assumed they would, is something very interesting, but right now its probably still too early to properly judge such societies. A few more generations probably need to pass before we can do that, and thats without scratching beneath the surface. In Denmark more children are now born out of wedlock than within. Will the destruction of the family come back to haunt that society?

However such is mere speculation. My original post considered the difficulties of evangelisation in material wealthy and socially just societies such as Sweden, and lately France and Spain.
The christian belief is that it does not profit a man to win all the wealth in the world and yet lose his soul. Now how motivating is that proposation in todays Sweden or Denmark? And how should the Pope and the church consider evangelisation in such societies which are rapidly becoming the norm?
I ask what strategies do they need to undertake?

 

[Call_Me_V]

However before you take a bow V, consider first that its not all so clear cut. We cant really assume that the social paradise that is Sweden of the 21st century is a result of its non-belief.

Oh, as I said above, I think that its non-belief is a result of it being a social paradise, not the other way around. It’s pretty clear that, geographically and historically, cultures stricken with poverty and other problems require some kind of religious beliefs in order to give them hope, while cultures that are healthy and happy, in which most people have a good chance of finding a spouse, raising children, having a satisfying career, and generally living a fulfilling life in their own right generally lose their need for such beliefs.

A good article on this subject can be found here.

V

 

[kildare]

Oh, as I said above, I think that its non-belief is a result of it being a social paradise, not the other way around.

I can only agree!

An interesting but well known characteristic about northern europeans is their dedication to consensus. Its been written about how important it is for people to fit in and not stand out in the crowd. This also helps the “trust” factor which makes transparency and low corruption possible. As en example from history lessons you’ll note how quickly the nordics converted to Christianity en masse, once they were convinced (or obliged) by their monarchs. Similarly in the 16th century, the reformation obliterated catholicism in only a few short years. And so since the 1970s religion in sweden has virtually collapsed.
I cant help but draw a parrallel to one of Swedens most famous exports, the 70s pop band ABBA. Originally formed with two married couples, the early material contained songs with a christian emphasis (Treat him well, he is your brother). By the 80s they were divorced and making songs about nihilism (the day before you came). Nowdays one of them is an evangelising atheist who believes religion should not be taught in schools. Such thoughts are not thought of a bizarre as they might be in the US. They are considered mainstream. Such has been the consensual shift.

If catholicism was ever to capture the nordic heart again, it would do so in one stroke!
But at present it is highly unlikely. A pity because there are so many christian fundamentals at work in society.

 

[Harri_Laaksonen]

I respond as a convert living in Finland. I have been “Around the block” theologically and it was the consistency of Catholic teaching that brought me home at the age of 62.

No sudden flash of light, Damascus Road, experience but one of consistency of doctrine of the Sacraments, the freedom to live out grace as it is given and so forth are the keys to evangelizing Scandinavians.

I agree it is difficult to get people who “have it good” to listen to the Gospel but that is because they believe in the theology of “Job’s comforters” rather than listing to the message of Christ as preached by St. Paul that we are all sinners and deserve none of the good things we have.

God has been merciful to the Nordic countries in the past 65 years, following WW2, but a lot of toil has gone into building the society. Dealing with the realities of climate and geography have made Nordic persons know that without helping each other our lives are difficult, brutal and short.

Let us not forget that it has only been 2 generations that we have not been a battle-ground of other than ideas. May we long remain just that and remember that God’s truth and justice will win out in the end.

 

[I_Fortuna]

-V-So you are suggesting that things don’t change. I believe that some Scandanavian countries have a high immigrant population including many Muslims. Is that not true? The world is changing my friend.

 

[Call_Me_V]

-V-So you are suggesting that things don’t change. I believe that some Scandanavian countries have a high immigrant population including many Muslims. Is that not true? The world is changing my friend.

No, of course they change. I just can’t see things changing in the near future, short of some sort of crisis that ruins their lives and makes the promises of religion more tempting to them.

As for the fact that the world is changing, it certainly is. Atheism has grown faster in the past century than any religion, from less than 1% of the population to more than 15%. Moreover, the one religion that seems to be growing stronger is Islam, and that’s not exactly a cheery prospect for Christians either (unless you’d like Iranian-style theocracy brought to Europe, and, eventually, to the U.S.).

V

 

[kildare]

consistency of doctrine of the Sacraments, the freedom to live out grace as it is given and so forth are the keys to evangelizing Scandinavians.

Thank you Harri. I think it is a cyclical thing, and regardless of material wealth, I do think that a time will come around again when the people will be ready to listen to the word of God again. It is therefore good that the church stands consistent like a rock.

As for the fact that the world is changing, it certainly is. Atheism has grown faster in the past century than any religion, from less than 1% of the population to more than 15%.

Hmm but not only through wealth and the force of reason. If I recall from my history book there is a fairly large amount of violence and religious repression under Communism and Maoism(Catholics still banned in china and N.Korea). Certainly the reason why “poor” eastern germany is far more atheistic than wealthy Bavaria (Germany’s wealthiest and most religious state) is more to do with a history of religious repression than anything else. Anyway the abuse cases have now, this year, finally made catholicism a minority in the city of Munich (though not yet in Bavaria) with a huge surge in defections. So what repression didnt destroy, wealth and sate welfare may succeed in doing.

Once again, I dont think Catholics shoul hope for any economic collapse to rally the lost sheep. We need to simply speak up and capture the hearts of the spitually impoverished.

Moreover, the one religion that seems to be growing stronger is Islam, and that’s not exactly a cheery prospect for Christians either (unless you’d like Iranian-style theocracy brought to Europe, and, eventually, to the U.S.).

I’ve often wondered that if the good times last a few generations, will the dcendents of christians, who were born unbaptised, look at Islam and Christianity in the same way, with 50% then presumably choosing Islam?
Constantinople was once the greatest city in Christendom. It is now a muslim city. Europe is no longer publically christian, but if atheism-humanism fails to hold its converts, will it become islamic?

 

[Call_Me_V]

I’ve often wondered that if the good times last a few generations, will the dcendents of christians, who were born unbaptised, look at Islam and Christianity in the same way, with 50% then presumably choosing Islam?
Constantinople was once the greatest city in Christendom. It is now a muslim city. Europe is no longer publically christian, but if atheism-humanism fails to hold its converts, will it become islamic?

Even if atheism holds its converts, it won’t make a difference. The atheists in Europe are shrinking, not through conversions to religion, but due to the fact that they are using birth control and abortion, and having smaller families. The Muslims are the opposite, they are making few converts, but they’re having tons of children. Europe’s transformation to an Islamic continent will occur (I think), but it will come not from atheists converting to Islam, it’ll come from atheists having small families while the Muslims in Europe breed like rodents, eventually becoming the majority.

What scares me the most about this is that Islamic radicals will finally have control of nuclear weapons, not by building their own in a country like Iran, but by becoming the majority in a European country that already has them. That scares me very much, if I’m entirely honest.

V

 

[Darnrarejob]

Let’s remember that it’s a lot easier for a country to have a low poverty rate when the population is much smaller, by the simple equation:
Low population=less people to take care of=low poverty.
I did some research.
Sweden has a population of 9,349,059 (which is roughly that of North Carolina), Denmark has a population of 5,534,738 (Which is roughly that of Wisconsin), Finland has a population of 5,359,300 (which is roughly that of Minnesota), Norway has a population of 4,879,700 (which is roughly that of Alabama), and finally Iceland has a population of 317,900 (which is about half the population of North Dakota). Not much compared to 300,000,000 in the USA.
I also have a brother who went to Finland during the summer a few years ago, and noticed that the Scandinavian society had not only no religion but no morals as well. He went to a theater to see a movie (Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull), and there was full-frontal nudity in the previews.
My question is this-Could the “Scandinavian Utopia” be explained by no religion, or low population?

 

[Call_Me_V]

Let’s remember that it’s a lot easier for a country to have a low poverty rate when the population is much smaller, by the simple equation:
Low population=less people to take care of=low poverty.
I did some research.
Sweden has a population of 9,349,059 (which is roughly that of North Carolina), Denmark has a population of 5,534,738 (Which is roughly that of Wisconsin), Finland has a population of 5,359,300 (which is roughly that of Minnesota), Norway has a population of 4,879,700 (which is roughly that of Alabama), and finally Iceland has a population of 317,900 (which is about half the population of North Dakota). Not much compared to 300,000,000 in the USA.
I also have a brother who went to Finland during the summer a few years ago, and noticed that the Scandinavian society had not only no religion but no morals as well. He went to a theater to see a movie (Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull), and there was full-frontal nudity in the previews.
My question is this-Could the “Scandinavian Utopia” be explained by no religion, or low population?

I don’t think that anyone is claiming that the utopia is explained by a lack of religion. Rather, their lack of religion is explained by their utopia. Happy people don’t need religion’s promises nearly as much as poor, downtrodden people.

V

 

[Rolltide]

Scandinavia has it so good, in large part, due to the fact that they are an utterly homogeneous society. Many completely homogeneous societies have been able to achieve great success. Other similar examples would be Japan, South Korea, and Chile. Recently (and before the tragic earthquake), Chile was named the first country in Latin America to officially become a “first world” nation. Why? Because it has absolutely no ethnic problems. It has almost no Native American population to speak of, unlike other South American nations. It never practiced slavery in any great numbers. It has an immigrant population, but they are predominantly from white European nations. Without the difficulties caused by the civil strife due to ethnicity that has plagued many nations, including our own, these countries were able to focus on economics and minimize poverty from an early point in time. Note that this is not a guarantee of success, but it sure helps.

 

[kildare]

Well Scandanavia is no longer very homogeneous, as ethnic minorties now form substantial sections of swedish and danish society. Some of the minorties(mainly islamic) are also more religious, which I thin may be causing some of the secular people to change their opinion of religion from something thats nice to something that is possibly dangerous. They fear that the religious “ignorance” might bring them back into the dark ages.

 

[Rolltide]

Well Scandanavia is no longer very homogeneous, as ethnic minorties now form substantial sections of swedish and danish society. Some of the minorties(mainly islamic) are also more religious, which I thin may be causing some of the secular people to change their opinion of religion from something thats nice to something that is possibly dangerous. They fear that the religious “ignorance” might bring them back into the dark ages.

While this is true now, it was not true when Scandinavia was initially establishing their current system of government. The end to Scandinavian homogeneity may very well cause problems for one or more of those states that could derail their system.