Evangelizing in the face of belligerent agnosticism

[RedFox0456]

Tonight I was celebrating my 26th birthday, and I went out for drinks with two friends. While we were out, we ran into an acquaintance of ours. After a couple drinks she asked if we were Christian, seemingly out of nowhere. We explained our various faiths (two Catholic, one agnostic but leaning to Christian), and she explained hers.

As she put it, she saw God not as some guy in the sky but as some force in her that helps to guide her by giving her intuition about right and wrong. The “guy in the sky” is something many of us know to be a misrepresentation of God, and we tried to explain this to her. Unfortunately, it seemed she was rather belligerent, and referred to “our God” (I use quotes because she kept gesturing with her hands) as being something irreconcilable with her belief structure. She seemed to want to control the conversation, rarely letting us speak, but insisting on letting her views be known. We are all working on an MS Mathematics, so understandably, rationality was key to her viewpoint.

One thing I note here: In my experience, people are far more willing to discuss faith over drinks than they are while sober. The reason I find this interesting is that alcohol limits inhibitions. The fact that even scientific and rational people seek to discuss God, to me, is a sign that in spite of their conscious objections to faith, they do in fact long for answers.

Now, I have been in many discussions about faith, in some cases with hardline atheists. I know how it feels to have your words fall on deaf ears. My problem here is that this girl had claimed to be searching for Truth, and yet we failed, as a group, to get her past her objections. I know I should never carry someone else’s conversion on my shoulders, but I feel as though there may have been some other approach that we had not considered. Logic tells me that no matter how intelligent, wise, or loving you are, some people will not see the Truth. And yet, my heart still weeps for my failure to teach the Truth to some people.

I will gladly clarify any points in this matter - my mind is simply racing with thoughts and I am posting this rather hastily.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

My problem here is that this girl had claimed to be searching for Truth, and yet we failed, as a group, to get her past her objections. I know I should never carry someone else’s conversion on my shoulders, but I feel as though there may have been some other approach that we had not considered.

I doubt it. She seems to be closed to God, and still prefers her own ideas about God. I don’t think you failed, on the contrary. I doubt that a hard-line agnostic will be converted by one conversation. With some people it takes a lot of time. Perhaps more rounds of drinks are needed.

What I find that works well is to adapt to the language that the person understands. Then turn the tables and make them answer questions about their beliefs. Lead them to the holes in their system and make them see where they are illogical and contradicting themselves. The point is not to convince them that you are right, but that they possibly could be wrong, and why.

 

[InNomineDomini]

I was, for many years, an intellectual, convinced atheist who took great pains to understand atheism and why I thought it best explained reality. I will also admit that I had psychological walls up to religion which went far beyond whether or not I thought religion was true or not. The idea of loving people, even strangers, coupled with personal snobbery and pride, really turned me off of religion. I couldn’t even begin to tell you how stupid and ignorant I thought religious folks were, and I openly was rude to them and hated them.

I realise I wasn’t alone in the sort of approach I took to things: both highly psychological and intellectual. I had, as many others do now, impediments and roadblocks that I’d put up; and argumentation or evidence would do nothing to a person in my position. (I would find a way to poke holes in the argumentation simply to spite. Whilst I was interested in truth, I considered truth merely something I could use to beat people up with, a sort of dose of sanity for the insane. I would have hooted at the idea that anyone could have real knowledge of truth, however. “Truth” was something that served me in fights.)

I say all of this to offer one example of an individual – and I’ve posted on this forum as such an individual – who would never have converted if not for grace. (Nothing “bad” happened to me, I simply started to fall in love with God.) There are those for whom you can do very little aside for pray, and then wait for a door to be opened. Sometimes, that door can be opened soon, or in a few years, or possibly even never. But you must never stop praying, and you must never cease waiting for an opportunity to share your faith. In the meantime, learn more and more every day!

If you haven’t done so already, I’d really recommend looking at Patrick Coffin’s audio set to you: Getting Started in Apologetics: The Least You Need to Know to Explain the Catholic Faith. . There’s some good, solid, practical advice in this set that is more spiritual and psychological than simply evidence based. It’s kind of like a pep talk to help get a person into the proper frame of mind as to how such apologetic conversations can be started, led, and concluded. For 10 bucks, you really should give it a go.

 

[Netty1]

Something I have noticed in (some) agnostics such as this young lady, who are vehement and sometimes hostile or belligerent towards Christians (and Catholics in particular), is that when one can peek just under the corner of their defensive shield, what can be seen is fear.

Even Catholics living as actively as they can within the faith find it hard to let go and free-fall into God’s mercy and into God’s divine will. So how much more scary can it seem to someone who is struggling to grasp the concept of an omniscient God. The fact that she sees this “force” she claims as “god” as internal to her is a telling aspect.

I find it interesting that she was the one who brought up the subject and directly asked you all for your faiths. The Shakespearean line from Hamlet “The lady doth protest too much, methinks” comes to mind.

The anger and disdain that comes from some agnostics is (it seems to me) a symptom of their fear that all there is in the universe is not bound up within themselves - and they just don’t know where to go with that thought to give themselves some peace. And of course they would rather shove their heads in a bucket of sand than admit that!

I’ve found the only way around this with such people is to try my best to show the attributes which Christ wants us to show as a light to the world. And - as a previous poster said - pray without ceasing!

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Sorry you had to listen to that on your birthday. I’ll pray for her.

 

[Petaro]

In Australia we have a saying - never argue with a mug.

 

[JRKH]

Well - given the circumstances I would say that your opportunity was extremely limited.
As you say alcohol can limit inhibitions and people many times say and discuss things that they would not do when completely sober (more’s the pity).
Unfortunately - depending on the individual the alcohol can also make them belligerent, intolerant “know it alls”.

About the best anyone could do in the circumstance you describe is to point out where the conception of the Christian God is in error and support in the areas where her concept of God fits with the Christian view.

Now that things are more “sober” - if you have the opportunity you might casually mention to her that you thought the conversation was quite interesting and ask her further questions about her beliefs. People love it when you are interested in them and their views.
Let her speak - make note of any truths in her comments and, if possible, build on these.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

 

[Ohana]

As she put it, she saw God not as some guy in the sky but as some force in her that helps to guide her by giving her intuition about right and wrong. The “guy in the sky” is something many of us know to be a misrepresentation of God, and we tried to explain this to her. Unfortunately, it seemed she was rather belligerent, and referred to “our God” (I use quotes because she kept gesturing with her hands) as being something irreconcilable with her belief structure. She seemed to want to control the conversation, rarely letting us speak, but insisting on letting her views be known. We are all working on an MS Mathematics, so understandably, rationality was key to her viewpoint.

One thing I note here: In my experience, people are far more willing to discuss faith over drinks than they are while sober. The reason I find this interesting is that alcohol limits inhibitions. The fact that even scientific and rational people seek to discuss God, to me, is a sign that in spite of their conscious objections to faith, they do in fact long for answers.

Now, I have been in many discussions about faith, in some cases with hardline atheists. I know how it feels to have your words fall on deaf ears. My problem here is that this girl had claimed to be searching for Truth, and yet we failed, as a group, to get her past her objections. I know I should never carry someone else’s conversion on my shoulders, but I feel as though there may have been some other approach that we had not considered. Logic tells me that no matter how intelligent, wise, or loving you are, some people will not see the Truth. And yet, my heart still weeps for my failure to teach the Truth to some people.

I will gladly clarify any points in this matter - my mind is simply racing with thoughts and I am posting this rather hastily.

 

[Ohana]

So what would have been wrong with starting from her statement that God was someone who spoke to her from her intuition to help her know right from wrong. Not a bad starting representation to my way of thinking! You guys appear to have leaped to some “proof” of God out of your (and Her) scientific logic background. Maybe this calls for a different approach.

Best to you in your evangelization.

 

[MarcoPolo]

she saw God not as some guy in the sky but as some force in her that helps to guide her by giving her intuition about right and wrong. … rationality was key to her viewpoint.

Notice how I edited your post above. Maybe you should ask what is the rational motive to believe in an impersonal force on her intuition.

That being said, there are some people whose obstinence you cannot defeat. If you get to the point where she dismisses or ignores points you make without a reasonable rebuttal, then it might be time to pull the ripcord and bail out, evangelizing only by your life, prayer, and penance in private. As Fr. Pacwa once said, paraphrasing, you are not stronger than another person’s obstinence. God is. God can work through you, certainly, but for some, only His special grace may be the remedy.