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Coder
Guest
It the subjection of humans to adverse weather and earthly events due to original sin? Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t think that there was any such danger to Adam and Eve before original sin.
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tonyrey
Guest
Only fundamentalists believe in the garden of Eden. Some individuals must have been the first to distinguish good from evil and sinned at some point in history but adverse weather has existed since the origin of the universe!
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Coder
Guest
Perhaps storms and other events preceded humans on the planet however I am asking if our subjection to these events is due to original sin. Jesus worked miracles and calmed the storm. This may be a clue. No event of the universe can harm us if God protects us from it. However, since original sin we still must pass through physical death. Before original sin there was no subjection to physical death so I would think that there was also no subjection to weather events.
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tonyrey
Guest
It depends whether you’re a fundamentalist and interpret the garden of Eden literally. I believe Genesis is symbolic rather than historical.
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severntofall
Guest
I have to admit that I am frightened by the prospect of Catholics developing a fundie theology. Catholic have always been a massive step ahead of all other christians because of their understanding of the role of the bible, but more and more I read post made by catholics that sound like evangelical theologies. Sola Scriptura is a heresy amoung your faith and for very good reason.It depends whether you’re a fundamentalist and interpret the garden of Eden literally. I believe Genesis is symbolic rather than historical.
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tonyrey
Guest
I’m delighted by your reaction .:clapping:
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Coder
Guest
Hi, it’s not a “fundamental” perspective. I am Catholic and I don’t claim the impossibility of evolution nor do I state that the Book of Genesis must be interpreted literally.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html
Original sin is a central doctrine of the Catholic faith and through it death has entered the world. Jesus came to save us. Therefore if there was no subjection to death then I would think there was no subjection to earthly events. This is what I seek responses to.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html
Original sin is a central doctrine of the Catholic faith and through it death has entered the world. Jesus came to save us. Therefore if there was no subjection to death then I would think there was no subjection to earthly events. This is what I seek responses to.
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Detales
Guest
Religion is emphatically not about meteorology or physics. Ask how effective pryer has been comarative to chance in events related to weather. How mwny hurricans or tornados were rendered harmless by prayer? Among people who prayed, vs ones who didn’t, what was the survival rate? Prayer certainly can have the effect of focusing attention, but remember the story of the guy who heard about the approaching flood:
He was to be evacuated by a bus taking people out of the high water area, and refused, saying “God will watch over me!” When that water arrived, a boat came by and offered to pick him off his porch and transport him to safety. “No,” he said, "God will watch over me!’
On his roof, waves lapping at his feet, he refused the aid of a helicopter’s rescue sling, shouting up to the crew “God will watch over me!” Naturally, he drowned, shortlythereafter appearing before St Peter. Incredulous, he asked–“What happened? I believed that God watches over me!” St Peter said, “He does–He sent you a bus, a boat, and a helicopter. You go to hell!”
He was to be evacuated by a bus taking people out of the high water area, and refused, saying “God will watch over me!” When that water arrived, a boat came by and offered to pick him off his porch and transport him to safety. “No,” he said, "God will watch over me!’
On his roof, waves lapping at his feet, he refused the aid of a helicopter’s rescue sling, shouting up to the crew “God will watch over me!” Naturally, he drowned, shortlythereafter appearing before St Peter. Incredulous, he asked–“What happened? I believed that God watches over me!” St Peter said, “He does–He sent you a bus, a boat, and a helicopter. You go to hell!”
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nkbeth
Guest
Pope John Paul II said:
Suffering, a consequence of original sin, takes on a new meaning; it becomes a sharing in the saving work of Jesus Christ (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1521). Through his suffering on the Cross, Christ has prevailed over evil and enables us too to overcome it. Our sufferings become meaningful and precious when united with his.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/sick/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20010813_world-day-of-the-sick-2002_en.html
Natural disasters are, of course, the cause of much suffering! The same physical events may (?) have occurred if Adam hadn’t sinned but they wouldn’t have been disasters for mankind.
It is not fundamentalist to believe in Adam and Eve. It is not Catholic to disbelieve in original sin as starting in the Garden of Eden. Pope John Paul II also said:
*
By proclaiming herself “the handmaid of the Lord” (Gospel acclamation; cf. Lk 1:38), Mary expresses the faith of Israel. She is the fulfilment of* the long wait for salvation which, starting in the garden of Eden**, passes through the Patriarchs and the history of Israel, to reach that “city of Galilee named Nazareth”
(Lk 1:26).vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_21121997_en.html
The history of salvation started in the garden of Eden, in a real place at a real time - just as its fulfillment was started. at a point in history in Nazareth.
The Church may (?) have never said that Satan appeared literally as a snake. But the Church certainly has said that the garden of Eden is real!
Suffering, a consequence of original sin, takes on a new meaning; it becomes a sharing in the saving work of Jesus Christ (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1521). Through his suffering on the Cross, Christ has prevailed over evil and enables us too to overcome it. Our sufferings become meaningful and precious when united with his.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/sick/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20010813_world-day-of-the-sick-2002_en.html
Natural disasters are, of course, the cause of much suffering! The same physical events may (?) have occurred if Adam hadn’t sinned but they wouldn’t have been disasters for mankind.
It is not fundamentalist to believe in Adam and Eve. It is not Catholic to disbelieve in original sin as starting in the Garden of Eden. Pope John Paul II also said:
*
By proclaiming herself “the handmaid of the Lord” (Gospel acclamation; cf. Lk 1:38), Mary expresses the faith of Israel. She is the fulfilment of* the long wait for salvation which, starting in the garden of Eden**, passes through the Patriarchs and the history of Israel, to reach that “city of Galilee named Nazareth”
(Lk 1:26).vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_21121997_en.html
The history of salvation started in the garden of Eden, in a real place at a real time - just as its fulfillment was started. at a point in history in Nazareth.
The Church may (?) have never said that Satan appeared literally as a snake. But the Church certainly has said that the garden of Eden is real!
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Coder
Guest
Hi, I am referring to the concept of subjection to events such as weather events.
Catholic doctrine is that death entered the world through the sin of Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve were not subject to death then one would think that they must have not been subject to earthly events.
Catholic doctrine is that death entered the world through the sin of Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve were not subject to death then one would think that they must have not been subject to earthly events.
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Coder
Guest
Yes. Jesus calmed the sea. Thank you.
In another thread I argue against legal clauses that use God’s holy name to refer to earthly events as though caused by Him. One might say that they are part of His natural creation but our subjection to these things is due to original sin! So, these documents should have this perspective!
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Detales
Guest
Those interpretaions put forth by the Pope and believed by the innocent pious.can only be the result of a tragic mis-understanding of the “Fall,” the Garden, and sin and death. Thus we have the construction of a tragedy based on the actual and real legitimacy of the Son of God misunderstood and made into modern Catholcism.
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geometer
Guest
I lived in a small village in Maryland for a while. It is one of the oldest in the state of Maryland. The smallest properties are five acres, and most of the land in farmed.
When one of the oldest members of the village died, and they were having the funeral in the graveyard of Saint Thomas Church. A violent thunderstorm rose up which was only as big as the church grounds. There were black clouds and bolts of lightning, very loud peals of thunder, and rain. And, this had also happened when other old timers were buried at the church. Otherwise, everywhere else it was a bright clear warm day. The storms were highly localized at the church grounds.
And, during ordinary days, the farmers always got the rain that they wanted for their crops. In Washington, D.C. which was 25 miles away, they might be having a drought, but we were having, farmers rain.
In that little village people really do pray for the kind of weather that they want, and they get the kind of weather they call for. When it was raining there you could drive out from the village in your car, and when you went beyond a certain point, you would drive out of the rain like passing through a curtain. The edge of the rain had a very distinct boundary, most of the time. You would go directly from wet road to dry road, as you left.
When one of the oldest members of the village died, and they were having the funeral in the graveyard of Saint Thomas Church. A violent thunderstorm rose up which was only as big as the church grounds. There were black clouds and bolts of lightning, very loud peals of thunder, and rain. And, this had also happened when other old timers were buried at the church. Otherwise, everywhere else it was a bright clear warm day. The storms were highly localized at the church grounds.
And, during ordinary days, the farmers always got the rain that they wanted for their crops. In Washington, D.C. which was 25 miles away, they might be having a drought, but we were having, farmers rain.
In that little village people really do pray for the kind of weather that they want, and they get the kind of weather they call for. When it was raining there you could drive out from the village in your car, and when you went beyond a certain point, you would drive out of the rain like passing through a curtain. The edge of the rain had a very distinct boundary, most of the time. You would go directly from wet road to dry road, as you left.
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Coder
Guest
In response to Datales’ post:
The Pope is expounding on Church teaching and not simply expressing his own opinion.
We believe that our first parents sinned and that no human except for Mary is sinless. Jesus offers us complete restoration to the Father with Him and in Him. There may be a tendency (itself a symptom of the fall it seems) to deny original sin and its consequences. Jesus loves us all. He died and rose for us all and you personally.
The Pope is expounding on Church teaching and not simply expressing his own opinion.
We believe that our first parents sinned and that no human except for Mary is sinless. Jesus offers us complete restoration to the Father with Him and in Him. There may be a tendency (itself a symptom of the fall it seems) to deny original sin and its consequences. Jesus loves us all. He died and rose for us all and you personally.
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tonyrey
Guest
I’m sorry if I upset you but you give the impression that you believe there was an earthly paradise. Original sin is an undeniable fact but sin leads to the death of the soul not the body. Jesus himself said “Fear not those who kill the body…”
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Detales
Guest
Hi Coder,
You are addressing someone, me, who has large collections of both experiences and stories of extraordinay happenings, everything from mildly ammusing to OMG!!! I’m just saying that as far as the Church’s interpretation as to the reason for all the things blamed on original sin, and on the nature of the Son of God, they have over time for whatever reason gone off track. I am not an atheist; au contrair. And I also am quite sure of an invisible heirarchy. I just am very very certain for a number of experiential and other reasons that the official Church line is sideways from the actuallity of the matter, all good intentions not withstanding, and all the pertinent information being in front of everyone’s nose, but mistaken.
You are addressing someone, me, who has large collections of both experiences and stories of extraordinay happenings, everything from mildly ammusing to OMG!!! I’m just saying that as far as the Church’s interpretation as to the reason for all the things blamed on original sin, and on the nature of the Son of God, they have over time for whatever reason gone off track. I am not an atheist; au contrair. And I also am quite sure of an invisible heirarchy. I just am very very certain for a number of experiential and other reasons that the official Church line is sideways from the actuallity of the matter, all good intentions not withstanding, and all the pertinent information being in front of everyone’s nose, but mistaken.
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Coder
Guest
Hi,
Read 398 and 400. I don’t see any way to interpret this other than that physical death also is a consequence of the first sin:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm
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severntofall
Guest
Just curious, how is it that original sin is an undeniable fact?
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Detales
Guest
Or that it is what you think it is?
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tonyrey
Guest
It is an undeniable fact that moral evil has not always existed on this earth. At some point in history human beings must have distinguished between good and evil for the very first time. Until that moment they were not morally responsible for their thoughts, actions or omissions. Since that moment we have all been affected by the choices they and their descendants have made. Arthur Koestler believed all the conflict and suffering caused by man shows there is a streak of insanity in the human race. He was wrong. It shows we are born into an environment where there is moral evil and are deeply affected by it from our early childhood. Selfishness is endemic in society. We are not fundamentally weak or corrupt but our attitude to others is distorted by what we are taught and what we observe. There is an underlying philosophy that life is a case of every man for himself. We can and do rise above this current but it is a constant struggle. Anyone who denies the reality of temptation is living in a dream world. Whether we like it or not we are the victims of the sins of others and therefore more likely to act likewise. Jesus liberated us from original sin by refusing to be caught up in the vortex of evil. He did not retaliate or resort to violence when faced with injustice. He gives us life with the power of His love and self-sacrifice on the Cross.
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