Ever Heard Of Apparitions of Mary On Coptic Orthodox Church?

[Hesychios]

Or it may look that way because you want it too…

I sincerely cannot see that this is a female, the garb looks like a priest.

I cannot tell what it is. I am being honest here.

I was pleased to learn that it moved, that adds a whole bunch of credibility to the sight.

I am a natural skeptic, as I have said before, and I need no signs. I am looking for no sign because I have the sign of Jonah.

Maybe other people do, ok for them.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

These apparitions took place over a period of about 3 years,

That’s another reason to be doubtful of it​

and there were over a million witnesses. A couple of the people on this site had relatives who saw her.

But what did they see ? Something that someone identified as the BVM. But on what basis ? There are no photographs of her, fingerprints, blood samples, voice prints, sound recordings, or any other biometric indicators by which to test the entities in these photographs. So how can anyone be sure that these entities look like her ? At least with our Queen or your President there are are plenty of documents to test claims like this by - but who can tell what a shimmery something that makes no noise is ?​

With a little ingenuity, it would probably be possible to simulate an apparition - this would be a very good idea, because it would be a good way of testing repoprts of apparitions for their plausibility. If an apparition can be simulated, the simulation would be a useful priotection against being taken in by alleged apparitions. Seing something so indistinct is proof of nothing; except that something was seen

If she was photographed, then maybe she deliberately allowed herself to be photographed, for the record.

So why was she not photographed on other occasions ? More to the point, how can something allegedly not of this world be photographed ? At this rate, we’ll be discussing why there are no snapshots of God How can spirit be photographed by what is corruptible ? For the resurrection-body is spiritual in some sense, according to Paul (1 Corinthians 15). Not fleshly & corruptible - like us, who can be photographed. You’re ignoring the vast difference between Heaven and earth. So my objection remains.​

Secondly, what form should an apparition take?

I answered that question in advance - in saying this thing seemed in no way to be numinous. Read Pere Poulain’s “The Graces of Interior Prayer”. He points out that many Saints who have experience in such matters are agreed that if a supposed apparition is undignified or trivial, it is not from God. That’s another reason to ignore this.​

I had the experience of my father appearing in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this terrifying scream and disappeared. But had I been able to photograph him, it would have looked like him, but I could still see through him.

He also moved around a bit, but as I pointed out elsewhere in another thread, if the whole exchange took place over two minutes (it wasn’t very long), then in that time I’d moved through space to the tune of about 60,000 kms or more, probably in a series of interlocking spirals. Since his spirit was not bound by gravity, either he had to keep himself in the room somehow, or whoever was holding him there had to play some high-speed footsie.

You either believe it or you don’t. In the case of Zeitoun, I think it was real enough, even though it was not a “Catholic” apparition.

I answered that question in advance - in saying this thing seemed in no way to be numinous. Reducing heavenly things to the level of this world cheapens them indescribably - which is more dangerous to belief in God & destructive to faith than any atheistic argument could be. This is materialism - not piety. The Zeitoun phenomena were certainly real as something - but as what ?​

 

[Bob_Crowley]

That’s another reason to be doubtful of it​

But what did they see ? Something that someone identified as the BVM. But on what basis ? There are no photographs of her, fingerprints, blood samples, voice prints, sound recordings, or any other biometric indicators by which to test the entities in these photographs. So how can anyone be sure that these entities look like her ? At least with our Queen or your President there are are plenty of documents to test claims like this by - but who can tell what a shimmery something that makes no noise is ?​

With a little ingenuity, it would probably be possible to simulate an apparition - this would be a very good idea, because it would be a good way of testing repoprts of apparitions for their plausibility. If an apparition can be simulated, the simulation would be a useful priotection against being taken in by alleged apparitions. Seing something so indistinct is proof of nothing; except that something was seen

So why was she not photographed on other occasions ? More to the point, how can something allegedly not of this world be photographed ? At this rate, we’ll be discussing why there are no snapshots of God How can spirit be photographed by what is corruptible ? For the resurrection-body is spiritual in some sense, according to Paul (1 Corinthians 15). Not fleshly & corruptible - like us, who can be photographed. You’re ignoring the vast difference between Heaven and earth. So my objection remains.​

I answered that question in advance - in saying this thing seemed in no way to be numinous. Read Pere Poulain’s “The Graces of Interior Prayer”. He points out that many Saints who have experience in such matters are agreed that if a supposed apparition is undignified or trivial, it is not from God. That’s another reason to ignore this.​

I answered that question in advance - in saying this thing seemed in no way to be numinous. Reducing heavenly things to the level of this world cheapens them indescribably - which is more dangerous to belief in God & destructive to faith than any atheistic argument could be. This is materialism - not piety. The Zeitoun phenomena were certainly real as something - but as what ?​

I lifted this from Wikipedia.

"According to eye witnesses, the Virgin Mary appeared in different forms over the Coptic Orthodox Church of Saint Mary at Zeitoun for a period of 2-3 years beginning on April 2, 1968[1]. The apparitions lasted from a few minutes up to several hours and were sometimes accompanied by dove-shaped luminous bodies. They were seen by millions of Egyptians and foreigners, including Copts, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews and people of no particular faith. The sick and blind are said to have been cured, and many people converted to Christianity as a result.

The Pope of Alexandria Kyrillos VI appointed a committee of high-ranking priests and bishops to investigate the matter, headed by Bishop Gregorios, bishop of postgraduate studies, Coptic culture and scientific research. On May 4 the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria in Cairo issued an official statement confirming the apparitions. They were also confirmed by the Jesuit Father Dr. Henry Habib Ayrout, and by Rev. Dr. Ibrahim Said of the Protestant Evangelical Ministries. Nuns of the Society of the Sacred Heart also witnessed the apparitions and sent a detailed report to the Vatican, resulting in the arrival of an envoy on April 28 who also saw the apparitions and sent a report to Pope Paul VI."

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Now, apart from the extraordinary number of witnesses, when Marian apparitions occur, they do so with a certain amount of timing and other significance. When Mary appeared at Lourdes, it was within four years of the doctrine of the Immacuate Conception, and within 6 months of the publication of three of secular humanism’s fundamental documents, including Charles Darwin’s “Origin of Species”, another book by Hegel and one by Mills, the British humanist.

When she appeared at Fatima, there was a relation to the people of Islam also, in that the town was, by a chain of events, named after Mohammed’s daughter, Fatima. Secondly at the final message on October 13, 1917, there were only four days to go before the Bolsheviks arrested the Russian royal family and had them executed. The Soviet “Error” was about to begin.

Now at Zeitoun she appeared from 1968 for about another 3 years. In 1967, Israel and Egypt had the six day war, and thousands of both nationalities died. I think her appearance was an appeal for peace. Mary was of Jewish origin, and yet she and the Holy Family took refuge in Egypt.

The Christian connection was the Church. Tie the three things together and you get a silent plea for peace between Israel, Mary’s people, the Moslems who venerate her, and the Church, which declares her Immaculate.

But of course we don’t listen. So there was another war in 1973, the Yom Kippur War.

And there is still no peace in the Middle East.

 

[orange2001]

If that’s the Holy Spirit, then maybe it’s Jesus.

Anyway, the image could be an old bishop or priest.

Halos are traditionally depicted as circles around the head, but that is a convention. It might look that way because people expect it to, or it might look that way because it is supposed to.

I was interested to learn that the image was moving. I had not ever seen someone post that before.

There are other pictures besides the two posted here. I’ve seen one where Mary is holding the baby Jesus. So it couldn’t have been Jesus.