Ever Virgin, Ever Sinless?

[jim1130]

trustmc:

There is no scripture that records Christ saying that. The closest we see Christ saying anything like that was during the episode with the adulteress where, addressing the crowd, Christ said, “Let anyone who is without sin cast the first stone.” Mary was not in the crowd at the time, which is a good thing, since had she been there she could have casted the first stone at the adulteress!

Seriously though, it was St. Paul who said in Rom 3:23 “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” However, he was speaking generally here about the condition of man, not universally. Had he meant this verse to be absolute, he would have implicated Christ as a sinner. Since we know this was not his intent, we can surmise that the verse leaves enough room for an exception for not only Christ, but Mary as well.

Mike

Thank you for what you wrote. I was quesitoned recently about Mary’s sinlessness and had a hard time explaining it in a convincing way. I guess for me it is a questionof faith and I dobelieve Mary remained sinless throughout her entire life. Since the Bible isnot selfinterpreting we cannot always rely on it for specific and black-and-white discourse.

 

[trustmc]

jim1130:

Thank you for what you wrote. I was quesitoned recently about Mary’s sinlessness and had a hard time explaining it in a convincing way. I guess for me it is a questionof faith and I dobelieve Mary remained sinless throughout her entire life. Since the Bible isnot selfinterpreting we cannot always rely on it for specific and black-and-white discourse.

I did a word search for “without sin” and “sinless” on www.crosswalk.com and cross-referenced with www.usccb.org just to make sure, and other verses that speak generally about man’s sinfulness are:

1 Ki 8:46: When they sin against you (for there is no man who does not sin), and in your anger against them you deliver them to the enemy, so that their captors deport them to a hostile land, far or near,

2 Ch 6:36: When they sin against you (for there is no man who does not sin), and in your anger against them you deliver them to the enemy, so that their captors deport them to another land, far or near,

Ec 7:20: yet there is no man on earth so just as to do good and never sin.

Keep in mind, the same arguement for why Paul was speaking generally instead of universally in Rom 3:23 applies to these verses as well. Also, nowhere in scripture do we see Christ saying that no one is sinless except for himself. Protestants, due to bad instruction, tend to distort the moral of the episode with the adulterous woman to say that no one is without sin.

Mike

 

[seabird3579]

SPOKENWORD:

Mans standard of goodness and Gods standard of goodness are two different things.Gods standard of goodness is judged by His law(10 commandments).There is no one who kept the Law except Jesus Christ. That makes everyone a sinner including Mary. God Bless

SpokenWord:

When you can’t see reason such as, God created Mary sinless so He could bring His Perfect Son into the world — that makes you hard-headed.

When you can’t see spiritual truths laid out before you – that makes you Hard-Hearted.

I don’t believe the “hard-hearted” make it to heaven. Jesus, by His death has opened heaven’s gate. But not all those who cry Lord, Lord, can enter in.

Pray that the Lord will soften your heart — that you might Know the Truth.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

seabird3579:

SpokenWord:

When you can’t see reason such as, God created Mary sinless so He could bring His Perfect Son into the world — that makes you hard-headed.

When you can’t see spiritual truths laid out before you – that makes you Hard-Hearted.

I don’t believe the “hard-hearted” make it to heaven. Jesus, by His death has opened heaven’s gate. But not all those who cry Lord, Lord, can enter in.

Pray that the Lord will soften your heart — that you might Know the Truth.

God cannot lie. His words are Truth. God Bless

 

[seabird3579]

SPOKENWORD:

God cannot lie. His words are Truth. God Bless

…now let me get this straight, you come onto a Catholic website and put forth the argument that the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, in not the Immaculate Conception as she herself has proclaimed?

…well, uh…good luck with that…

just a belated thought…have you read any Catholic doctrine or researched Marian apparitions at all? …or have you just made up your mind and don’t want to be confused with the facts?

 

[puzzleannie]

MamaSusie:

We recently discussed the Chruch’s view on Mary because my son came home with some literature from a Baptist church that reads, “Mary is mentioned a few times in the Bible. She also gave birth to X, X, X, X…Jesus’s brothers and sisters.” I was a little taken back by that to say the least. Frankly, I couldn’t believe I was reading it!
Mama

challenge your son’s source to give the scripture verse that says Mary gave birth to these brothers and sisters. there is no such verse, so they can’t do it. there is an extensive discussion of all your questions on the CA homepage in the article “Mary” (look in the left most column).

 

[jim1130]

seabird3579:

…now let me get this straight, you come onto a Catholic website and put forth the argument that the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, in not the Immaculate Conception as she herself has proclaimed?

…well, uh…good luck with that…

just a belated thought…have you read any Catholic doctrine or researched Marian apparitions at all? …or have you just made up your mind and don’t want to be confused with the facts?

Over 20 years ago, when I lived in VA, I went to a non-denominational service with my friend. During one of his rants, the minister/pastor mentioned how better they were (those in the congregation) than those “heathen in Rome who pray to that woman.” And people wonder why Catholics are overly sensitive.

 

[gryskull]

MamaSusie:

Oh, dear! That was vinegar and honey, wasn’t it? lol Well done!

Pamphlet…if it were that easy. He has been a Bible thumping Christian for 33 years (“saved at age 5”) and I can assure you he “walks the walk” stronger than anyone I have ever known, Catholic or otherwise. That makes it harder for me to ask him to alter his beliefs. Based on how he lives his life, I have no right, on the surface, to challenge him.

The real issue for him is, once again, this:

I think his big hang up is "Why do you believe she REMAINED sinless, especially when Christ said all have sinned…none is sinless, not one."

If it takes me THIS long to get a concise answer in a Catholic forum, imagine how confused HE is.

Hi there MamaSusie. I just like to mention that it wasn’t Christ that said that, it was St. Paul(Rom 3:23). So if your husband uses this premis then you should ask him that if all means all then Jesus would fall in the same category which we all know that HE doesn’t. We can also include the newly born babies up to the age of reason. So this only tells us what St. Paul meant with his using of the word all, not everybody. People during those times and even Jesus would use a hyperbole to emphasize a point.

I did a paper on Jesus’ brothers and sisters and if you want to read it here’s the link.

And to his question “why is it such a big deal that we believe that she was a virgin or remained sinless?” well, here’s my take on that.

I think your husband thinks that Mary’s sinlessness or her being ever virgin doesn’t make a difference in his relationship with God. Whether she remained a virgin or was sinless is unimportant because ultimately Jesus is his personal Lord and savior. He is his path to eternal life. Well, for us catholics it’s a little bit different. Jesus became submissive to his bride when he said whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven(paraphrasing) and he can only be submissive to the truth. Which means that his Church will always teach the truth. That was a guarantee given to us by Jesus through his church so that we may not be led astray. So if Mary was not sinless or ever-virgin then our whole faith collapse because the church has declared something to be untrue. Then the domino effect palys in, doctrine of infallibility, immaculate conception, etc. If we know that the Church can err then what makes it different with other churches. I guess you get my point already****. I hope this helps.

God bless.